Leah Sax:
Hello and welcome to episode 17 of Delight Podcast. I am Leah Sax and this is Adam Curtis.

Adam Curtis:
Hello. Today’s episode we’re looking at Joy and where we can find happiness. And we’re going to be hearing from a lady who’s writing and thinking I found particularly encouraging and joyful. Now we want to be upfront. We know that for some listeners, they’ll be going through a tough time of mental health at this moment, and we want to encourage you that we will touch on this briefly during the episode. Yes.

Leah Sax:
Today our guest is Kirsten Birkett. She’s currently publications director for the Church Society, but also a highly accomplished author.

Leah Sax:
We are going to welcome Kirsten Birkett to Delight Podcast. Welcome.

Kirsten Birkett:
Hello.

Leah Sax:
It’s so nice to have you here. Now, am I allowed to call you Kirsty because you’re officially Kirsten, right? That’s correct.

Kirsten Birkett:
Yes. You can call me Kirsty. Okay, great. I give you permission.

Leah Sax:
Thank you. Very much. So, Kirsty, just. Just give us a big picture. Tell us who you are, what you do, just so we can get to know you a little bit more.

Kirsten Birkett:
Well, I’m an Australian now in Britain. I taught at Oak Hill Theological College for 14 years, so I came over for that after that, went into church ministry and then happened lockdown. And I couldn’t stay in that job anymore. So I moved house and now I live in Carlisle and I’m still in Britain after all this time.

Leah Sax:
Amazing. Carlisle Very, very far north. And I feel like I’m very far south. Amazing. Could you just tell us, how did you come to know Jesus?

Kirsten Birkett:
Well, let’s see. I was in my second year of university. I was 20 years old. I was very spiritual. I meditated. I did astral travel. I read a lot about Buddhism. I was certain there was a spiritual reality. I wanted to know more about it. I just was very much floundering. I was sure there was a spiritual war, but how do you know what’s good and is there evil? And how can I stay away from the evil? It was just in the middle of that. When my sister invited me to stay with her, she had suddenly gone to study at a Christian theological college, which seemed a bizarre thing to do.

Leah Sax:
Did she just do it out of the blue?

Kirsten Birkett:
Well, yeah, she had she had been studying medicine at university. She graduated. She was a doctor and then went off to theological college,

Leah Sax:
Obviously.

Kirsten Birkett:
Yeah. So I went to stay with her. And while I was there, they explained the gospel to me and I thought, Well, this is exactly what I’ve been looking for. There it was all along. Yeah, I became a Christian within the space of three days.

Leah Sax:
Wow.

Kirsten Birkett:
During that holiday.

Leah Sax:
That’s amazing. So you’d come from astral travel? I don’t know Even that is, to knowing Jesus is your saviour. Did that bring any immediate change in your life? Was it slow? What were your perspectives on astral travel Post Jesus?

Kirsten Birkett:
That something happens when you travel astrally. But I’m not convinced that it’s a good thing to do. Yeah, and so I stopped doing it.

Leah Sax:
Amazing.

Kirsten Birkett:
I mean, there is a spiritual world and there is spiritual evil. So we want to be careful of what we get in touch with knowing Jesus. He is Lord. I need to have no fear of evil anymore. His spirit is in me.

Leah Sax:
What was your journey for the rest of your 20s? What were your next steps? Post Knowing Jesus.

Kirsten Birkett:
Radical Change. Suddenly having entirely changed my life philosophy and meant having to change my lifestyle in a surprising way. I had been almost totally cut off from other humans at that stage. I was very shy,

Leah Sax:
Okay,

Kirsten Birkett:
And I didn’t like talking to people. And so living independently, I thought, well, why should I bother? And no one could give me a good answer. So I just stopped doing it. If I saw anyone on the street that I knew, I would cross the road to avoid them just so I didn’t have to speak to anyone. Wow.

Adam Curtis:
Okay. Well, thank you for speaking for us now.

Kirsten Birkett:
Yeah. Yes. The thing is, God actually likes communication. He speaks and he wants us to speak to each other and he built us for relationship. And so suddenly I was faced with the fact, well, I can’t just avoid people anymore. These are God’s creations. I need to relate to them. I changed what I was studying. I moved over to history and philosophy of science because I was fascinated by how ideas form and why are people sure they know things? How do they know what they know? Ended up doing a PhD, Mainly because I wanted to do campus ministry and a PhD seemed to be the easiest way to stay there and do it.

Leah Sax:
Oh wow.

Kirsten Birkett:
And then after that, worked in publishing for ten years and then came to England.

Leah Sax:
And now you’re an author yourself, right?

Kirsten Birkett:
I am, yes.

Leah Sax:
Have you am I right in thinking you have a book recently out, which I just got an amazing cover. Can you tell us a bit more about your book?

Kirsten Birkett:
It does have a lovely cover. Yes.

Leah Sax:
But it’s the inside that counts, just as a caveat.

Kirsten Birkett:
Yes. So at the start of lockdown, when I was still working for the church and being faced with people’s fears about lockdown, I was asked to write some Bible studies for the home groups that had all moved online. And I thought, well, we’ll look at Psalms because what you get in Psalms is not just wonderful truths that are useful to remember in the face of fears, but we’ve got examples of how people use them. So it’s very often to find a psalm that starts off with someone in the midst of trouble and being fearful, being afraid of what’s happening. And then the psalmist reminds themselves of these wonderful truths about God and salvation and God’s promises. And the psalm ends up in rejoicing.

Leah Sax:
Yes.

Kirsten Birkett:
And that’s what I wanted for people to go from fear to rejoicing. So that’s what the book does. It goes through, I think it’s 12 different Psalms that I look at, and each chapter explains the psalm and explains how that addresses our fears and how we can use them to address our fears. The original Bible studies that I wrote, I’ve published that alongside them as well. So there’s a workbook that you can work through with the book.

Leah Sax:
Resources!

Kirsten Birkett:
Yes, that’s right. And because I’m also convinced that writing things down is really effective. In getting them into our heads and into our hearts. So I’ve also published a journal so you can write down your reflections as you’re working through the Bible studies and as you’re reading the book.

Leah Sax:
Well, we will definitely put a link in our show notes, Living Without Fear to Your book and those resources. Do you know who also is obsessed with journaling?

Kirsten Birkett:
Who?

Leah Sax:
Adam Curtis, my fellow, He is obsessed with wanting to do an entire episode on the topic.

Adam Curtis:
Well as Kirsten also has a book on journaling. We could actually turn this episode into a one on just about journaling.

Leah Sax:
Adam! I know, I know that’s what you want to do, but we’ve got we’ve got a joyful topic. Not that journaling is joyful. Okay, we’re getting a bit off topic.

Leah Sax:
How did you find your own fears and your relationship with God changed during those years when you were writing these books? How were you challenged in that time?

Kirsten Birkett:
I mean, there’s been a number of times in my life when I’ve been very fearful and I think I’m a fearful personality. I do tend to look on the negative side, and I get afraid of what might happen. So I’ve always known that was something I had to to challenge in myself. And then just the way things have worked out, you know, I came to, across the world by myself to a new job. Things like that was very stressful. Under lockdown when I lost my job in London, had to move to a new place where I knew virtually no one. There’s been plenty of times when I need to put into practice the sorts of things I talk about, and that’s precisely why I’m so interested in it, because I want to do it for myself first. And if it can help me, I figure it can help anyone. Really.

Kirsten Birkett:
What do you Think God is teaching you through your fear, as it were?

Kirsten Birkett:
Bottom line is to trust him, to know that he is in charge of the future and he is good. He loves us and he is good. And we can trust that which we find very hard to do. One, because we want to know the future for ourselves. We don’t want to trust him. We just want to know what’s going to happen. And he says, No, I’ve got it in hand. Trust me with what’s going to happen. The important things about the future. He has made absolutely certain. He has told us our ultimate future, that there will be a new creation and that those in Christ will be with him forever. That’s absolutely certain. We can be look forward to that and know that it’s real and that makes all the difference to life Now. The Bible is very realistic about it isn’t going to be a perfect world. Bad things will happen. They are there paradoxically for our good and God does bring good out of them. And guess that’s what I’ve something I knew in my head. Now I actually know by experience God does bring good out of going through tough times. And one of the best things He brings out of that is the ability to trust him more and to be confident that we needn’t fear. Two things that Christians need never feel are loneliness and fear. And yet those are the two things that plague so many people.

Leah Sax:
Hi Delight Podcast family. We gained nearly all of our audience through social media, so every time you share the pod, a post or a blog, it invites new people into our little family. So thank you for liking and sharing and subscribing. We do go on about it all the time, but it really does help and we’d love to hear from you, so please feel free to drop us a DM. Let us know what you thought of the episode or what you’d like to hear in the future. You can check out our website at DelightPodcast.com. There you can find transcripts of each episode, more detailed show notes, and the latest blog by Adam on Joy.

Adam Curtis:
People always think that the next thing will finally make me happy if I get a pay rise. Get fit. A new job, a new car. A new house. If I go on a cruise or get married or have kids yet we get the next thing. And happiness doesn’t seem to last. We look on social media and see photo after photo of smiling faces and we wonder, will that ever be me. In 2022 A survey was done that established that one of the most popular questions people in the UK are asking right now is what will make me happy? Everyone seems to want to be happy, and yet happiness seems so hard to find. Kirsten why do you think that people struggle to find happiness?

Kirsten Birkett:
There are a few things there that I would want to say. One is people look for happiness in the wrong places. It’s interesting. One of the things that our governments for a long time now have tried to maximise and that, you know, Western liberal democracy tries to maximise is choice. Increased choice does not make you happier. That’s very well established. In fact, in increased choice can make you unhappier because you don’t know what to choose and you’re afraid that you’ll choose the wrong thing. In all sorts of ways, our culture pushes us towards things that will actually not make us happy, while all the time telling us that this will make us happy. So it’s not surprising. Surprising, really, that people are getting lost. There’s an effect called the hedonistic treadmill. So if you get something really nice, you get the new car or the new house or the job you’ve been longing for or, you know, the thing you’ve been waiting for for so long, it will make you happier. But then that will stop because you get used to it and. And suddenly you need another new thing to make you happy. But the third thing I want to say is that all the things that people look for in this world to make them happy. Yeah, they may work for a short time. They may work for a long time, but none of them is going to last because everything in this world decays and disappears eventually. If you want something that’s going to make you always happy, it has to be something that will always be true. It has to be something that’s eternal. We do need to be looking for things that are eternally true if we want to be able to rely on them to be make us consistently happy.

Adam Curtis:
Is it actually then possible for us to be happy because we seem to be painting quite a picture here that for human beings on on Earth we’re given all this choices, but they’re not going to make us very happy. We enter into life giving relationships and even a good one will end in death. Is happiness actually a possibility?

Kirsten Birkett:
Oh, absolutely. It’s not only possible, God commands it. He tells us all the time in the Bible, Rejoice, be joyful. That’s something people do have difficulty getting their minds around, partly because, look, I’m dumping you with a whole lot of information here. I’ve actually done all the research for a book on happiness. I just haven’t actually written the book yet. Oh, that’s why I’ve got all this stuff in my head at the moment. Partly people have a very, what should I call it, romantic idea of emotions, romantic in the technical sense that it came from the romantic movement of the 19th century. And that is that emotions are wild and free and you can’t control them. They just come upon you and they’re there or they’re not there. That’s actually not scientifically true. And it’s a very unhelpful way to think about emotions because then if you’re not happy, what do you do? You just have to wait for it. It will just come upon you somehow. No, there are things we can do to make ourselves happier because actually it is our minds that will direct our emotions. You know, it takes time to change emotions, and the deeper they are, the longer time it will take. But emotions can change. That’s the whole reason why you have things like cognitive therapy. The cognitive is your thinking. If you can change your thinking, you can over time change what you’re feeling. It is possible to be happy. But the way to do it primarily is through how you think, not just the things you have, but what is your attitude towards them and how do you think about the good and the bad things that happen in life? What’s your mental schema as you approach whether it’s difficulty or goodness? That’s the thing that actually makes the difference to our emotional lives.

Adam Curtis:
Wow. Okay. So God is commanding us to rejoice. So God wants us to be happy. So we’re going down this line of thinking that it’s about us changing how we’re thinking about situations. Just give me a bit of clarity. How would I go about that? Maybe a step by step sort of process if I want to change my my thinking so that I can come to this negative situation with a more helpful mindset.

Kirsten Birkett:
One of the Biggest things that affects our emotions is what do we pay attention to? And it’s very easy to pay attention to the bad things, the things that you don’t like, the things that you discontent with. So pay attention to the fact that I don’t have this thing that I want or that someone else has it, and why should they have it and not me? And you compare yourself to yourself, to others, and that drives unhappiness. But if you can change that around to paying attention to the positive things that genuinely does make a difference. This is what I was kind of alluding to back when I was talking about the hedonistic treadmill. The way to get off that treadmill, the way to make it so that when you get a good thing and it makes you happy, how do you stop that feeling from fading? It’s it’s being thankful for it. And that’s something that comes out in all the psychological research as well as something that’s all through the Bible that God tells us, be thankful for what you have. And actually that is the way to rejoice. Way to to stop joy being fleeting. We should be thankful for the things in this created world, even the things that will pass away. They’re still good, and we should pay attention for them and be glad that we have them. And also paying attention to the eternal good things that we have because they’re the ones that really won’t pass away.

Leah Sax:
When you’re talking about focusing on the positive as opposed to the negative, how does that look different for a believer and a non believer?

Kirsten Birkett:
When a believer focuses on the positive things by being thankful for them, We know who we’re thankful to for anyone, believer it or not, if you’re thankful about the things in your life, you will feel better, you will feel happier, but you kind of being thankful out into the void. Just this attitude of being thankful without knowing who is it I’m saying thank you to? It’s so much more powerful when you actually do know the person you’re being thankful for. You know the person who gave it to you, who created these things. You know what he’s like. You know what his character. You know that he did it out of love and out of his goodness. And that just makes it all better. Being a believer and being thankful is far more powerful, precisely because, you know, God who provided all these things. What’s more, being a believer, you’ve got more things to be thankful for because you’ve got a bigger, a bigger universe. There is God there and He is eternal and he has saved us and He has destined us for a whole new creation where there will be no suffering, there’ll be no pain or tears or mourning. That just is mind blowing.

Adam Curtis:
In this Vast sort of universe of things we can be thankful for. What are those key truths? Those key things which are always true, which the Christian wants to be cognitively just focusing upon?

Kirsten Birkett:
One is God is there and He’s good. Spend time thinking about God. I think this is a thing that not enough Christians do. Just think about God. He’s amazing. He’s immense. He’s eternal, infinite. He’s all powerful. And not just that he’s all powerful, but he’s good that everything he does is good. And even the things we don’t understand and think, Well, why on earth are you doing that? We know we can trust him. Just thinking about the character of God, his love that he created the universe out of love because he delights in it. He loves to create. Think about his kindness. Kindness is such a valuable trait that kind of gets forgotten. Kindness is actually such a wonderful thing. God is kind. He is the one we get the idea of kindness from. So there’s all sorts of things in the character of God that Christians should be thinking about. Also, just thinking about what he’s done, given what we’ve done to him. Human beings just universally reject God, ignore God, forget to be thankful for this wonderful world that he created for us, and yet he still loves us. And in fact, while we were his enemies, Christ died for us precisely so that we could come back to God and be in relationship with Him. Just the gospel itself, the depths of love that that shows. That is a wonderful thing to think of and the future that we’re heading towards. The fact that there will be this new creation that will last forever with nothing bad in it, and we are genuinely going there. Those in Christ really are going there. That’s that’s true. I will live forever. One of the great Puritan scholars of the past, Richard Baxter Puritans get a very bad reputation. It’s not at all deserved. They were actually kept going on about being joyful, being happy. And he recommended thinking about heaven for half an hour every day just because it’s so wonderful. That’s a good thing to do.

Adam Curtis:
It is a good thing to do. How would one actually go about doing that? Because even as you say that my immediate sort of thought is like heaven is so beyond me. I am this creature, I live in this creaturely world. How do I actually focus on heavenly things like that?

Kirsten Birkett:
We don’t have much definite information about that heaven, I think, precisely because it is so far beyond us. But the images that we are given are all of wonderful, brilliant, fantastic things. A lot of the imagery is of, you know, when people in the Bible have visions of God or visions of heaven, it’s light and things that give light and reflect light and colour, you know, wonderful jewels and gold and silver and all these images of bright light things. And the descriptions we have are of of what won’t be there, that there won’t be tears because we’ll have no need to cry because we won’t be sad. Certainly my mind wants to go to specific concrete things about what heaven will be like. I’ll be like a lovely forest or be like a beautiful view or sunset, you know? And maybe it will, because those are good things. I don’t think it’s wrong for me to think about those things. I don’t know for sure exactly what it’ll be like. But whatever it is, whatever wonderful image I can bring up in my mind, it will be better than that.

Leah Sax:
So we’re commanded to be joyful. Rejoice. We know that we have so many things to be thankful for. Is there a difference between an attitude of joyfulness and an emotion of joyfulness? So there are times when we just feel emotionally sad and we still understand the concept of heaven. How does that duality sit with regard to truth and emotions?

Kirsten Birkett:
Emotions are complicated and you can have different emotions at the same time. You can be joyful at one thing while at the same time you’re sad about something else. And sometimes the sadness will dominate because sad things happen. Terribly sad things happen. We are creatures in our bodies and sometimes the sad emotions are just going to dominate. But you can still hold on to that core that you know that underneath it all is something that’s worth rejoicing in. And maybe you can’t quite manage it right now, but you will be able to because the sadness will pass and the joy will be eternal. I think it’s that sort of attitude sometimes that’s even a fierce determination. I will hold on that fact that I know that there is joy and I will be able to return to it.

Adam Curtis:
And maybe this might be a good point in the podcast to talk about people struggling with mental health. Like, would you have any wisdom for that person who’s in the midst of depression right now and struggling to feel that emotion of joy?

Kirsten Birkett:
Well, definitely do see your doctor because there are physical aspects to things like depression and anxiety, and so get professional help with those sorts of things. If it’s appropriate to go on antidepressant drugs, they can be very helpful. So make use of that creative blessing that is there and the expertise of doctors who are able to prescribe that sort of thing. And also the counselling that is available, whether it’s secular or Christian counselling, that is just talk therapy is what I’m talking about. Just talking to someone, to a trained person who can talk you through what you’re feeling and give you better ways of thinking. Cognitive therapy is very effective precisely because it will teach you how to identify when your thinking is so negative and challenge that and change it. So. So do get professional help alongside that. If you’re a Christian, you want to make sure that you are inhabiting that bigger universe. Cognitive therapy becomes so much more powerful when there are so many more positive things that you can be challenging yourself with. And so do that. Put it in the context of the wider universe, that it’s not just that I can think more positively about things in the world, but I can think more positively about everything, about eternity. And so that’s why it’s useful to be talking this over with other Christian friends or with your pastor, if that’s possible, to give you that Christian framework. That is all part of bringing your thoughts around so that you’re not always focussed on the negative and giving yourself the positive to focus on. If I can go to a topic, I think that’s close to both our hearts. Adam Write it down because journaling really does help. It really does help. This is something that secular psychologists will say, as well as knowing that it’s a great spiritual aid.

Adam Curtis:
You’re speaking about CBT, speaking about secular psychologists. Are there ever other things we can learn from the secular world on this topic of joy? Oh, certainly.

Kirsten Birkett:
What secular science does is study us in our created existence, in our bodily existence, and people who very carefully study how humans work will discover a lot of true things about humans. So it’s useful to know things like how do emotions link with our thoughts and how are they affected by our bodies? You know, what are the actual things that people can do that experimentally show make them happier? That’s all that’s all part of wisdom. I think it’s all part of knowing the world, knowing how it works. There’s a lot that secular science can teach us. It is limited only to studying this world, and so we need God’s Word to give us the information about all the other things that are true that are even more powerful. But we shouldn’t reject what secular science has to say.

Adam Curtis:
And we’ve spoken a lot in this podcast about how we can cultivate joy within ourselves. How can we help cultivate joy within others, or should we even be doing that, or should we just let everyone just do their own thing?

Kirsten Birkett:
That’s where I was back before I was converted, thinking, you know, other people can look after themselves. Why should I care? That’s not consistent with the God who saved us. Who cares so much that he died for us? That’s the attitude we are to have with other people. Yes. To help them rejoice because there is so much to rejoice in. And it’s right. It’s good to rejoice in what God has done for us. And we do it firstly by having relationships with other people, which is more than just saying hello. Wasn’t the weather nice this week? You know, as you. Reach for a cup of coffee after church. It is actually getting to know people, sharing your life with them, inviting them to your home and talking about the things that are good. So reminding people that creation is good, it’s beautiful, and we can take delight in it, reminding people that even though this creation will end, there will be an eternal new creation that will go on forever. It’s knowing people and talking to them about what is good.

Leah Sax:
Are we able to find joy in things that are not biblical, i.e. finding joy in work or finding joy in new sparkly dresses? Because that’s a lot of where I find a lot of joy. I’m a musician, so I love making music. Is it good? Is it sinful to find joy in things that are different to those those promises of heaven or God’s character?

Kirsten Birkett:
You’re not talking about anything that’s not biblical. God created the world. It’s all his. He created it and it’s good. He created the world for us, for us to live in. And enjoyment is part of that. So, yes, of course it’s good to find joy in created things and our joy is increased by being thankful about the created things that we have been given. We know that they’re not all going to last, but they’re still wonderful. They’re still wonderful gifts. And yes, it’s entirely right to find joy in them.

Leah Sax:
I feel like I want to ask this question because it seems relevant. I just want to ask you, Kirsty, what are you finding joy in at the moment?

Kirsten Birkett:
Right now, the sun streaming in through the window and that’s wonderful. After a cold winter, my apple trees are starting to get little buds of leaves on them. I had a really nice weekend with a friend up in Glasgow.

Adam Curtis:
There are so many things in creation which can give us joy and which do give me joy. But how can I enjoy the good things of creation without sort of making them my everything, without valuing them too highly? Because it seems to be those moments when I value them too highly is also the moments when I am really envious or jealous of people who have created goods which I don’t have.

Kirsten Birkett:
I’ve mentioned this book that I’m thinking of writing on happiness. I think as an overall framework. Part of what I want to say is, first, to be happy, pay attention to created blessings, and then stop paying so much attention to created blessings because both are necessary, because yes, we can get it all out of kilter and think that this creation is all that matters. And I have to have everything that’s good in this creation. And I do start getting envious of other people and thinking, well, why should they get that thing? Why don’t I have it? You know? One Corinthians 13 tells us love does not envy. That means envy does not love. If you’re envying someone, you are not loving them. So stop paying so much attention to the created blessings, especially the ones that other people have that you don’t because they’re not ultimate. They’re not everything. The things that are going to last are the eternal things, the things that have always been there and will always be there. And that is in the end, what’s truly going to give us joy.

Leah Sax:
Hadn’t realised how much of joy sits on that attitude of thankfulness. And no matter how we’re feeling, whether we’re happy or sad or lonely or or broken, that we just have to hold on to Jesus. And that’s an attitude of thankfulness and just continuing to pursue who Jesus is.

Adam Curtis:
Yeah, I’ve really enjoyed how practical this episode was, really. On one level, you want to be thankful for these created goods, and our act of being thankful does actually create positive emotions within ourselves. But also secondly, you just want to focus on on those eternal goods or those things which are eternally true. Because if it’s if it’s always true that it can always make you happy. Yeah.

Leah Sax:
And I love how Kirstie because obviously I call her Kirstie because she’s my friend. And you refer to her as her royal highness. Kirsten was just also very real about the the living life. When you’re going through a time of difficult mental health and how that sits side by side with God’s truth, and that doesn’t take away from the truth of joyfulness, really appreciate her honesty. So it’s time for our bonus question. Kirsty And can also just note that Adam has called you cursed in the whole time. So I’m saying that we’re friends and Adam is just an Adam.

Adam Curtis:
I’m saying that there’s like, I’ve got academic respect. Kirsten was one of the lecturers when I was at Oak Hill, so I’m in reverence and awe right now.

Leah Sax:
Um, Kirsty, I’m sticking with it. If you could give a new believer one piece of advice, what would it be?

Kirsten Birkett:
It will all work out. Being a new believer can be confusing because you’re entering a whole different world of thought and knowledge and culture and people, and it can be weird. It will work out. It will be absolutely worth it. So stick with.

Leah Sax:
It. Amen. Thanks, Kirsty. Thank you so much to Kirsty Birkett for being our guest on episode 17 of Delight Podcast. Please do tune in next week for episode 18 with Steve Osei-mensah, where we’ll be delving into the topic of work. This is Adam and Leah delightfully signing off.

Buh bye. Bye.