Leah Sax:
Hello and welcome to episode 18 of Delight Podcast. I am Leah Sax and this is the Royal Reverend Adam Curtis.
Adam Curtis:
Hello. Today we’re looking at the topic of work. Now we realise this is a huge topic and we’ve decided to focus this episode on salary based employment. And we do this knowing full well that people work in other ways volunteering, parenting, internships, studying that some people don’t work, some people are unable to work and that some people have retired.
Leah Sax:
Today, our guest is Steve Osei-Mensah. He has many strings to his bow. He is the chair of the Langham Partnership. He is a non-executive director of the Mission Aviation Fellowship. So MAF and MAF International, he’s also a part time curate. He’s also does commercial coaching and he’s also a man of much wisdom.
Adam Curtis:
Hello Steve, and welcome to Delight Podcast.
Steve Osei-Mensah:
Hello. Good to meet you. Good to listen to you.
Adam Curtis:
Steve in a moment, we’re going to delve deep into the topic of work. But first, we’d love to get to know you a little bit better. Like who are you? And maybe what are some of your highlights and lowlights of working life?
t:
Well, who am I? I’m a non-executive director. I chair one charity. I’m on the board of a couple of others. One’s an educational charity, and the other one’s involved in connecting isolated people. Langham Partnership and Mission Aviation Fellowship. I also continue consulting. I spent a career in consulting with a couple of large firms, and since retiring from them and I’ve continued to coach and consult. So I do a bit of that. And I’m also a curate like your good self, although in my case it’s probably a little bit more part time. But I enjoy all of those things and I’m very grateful because I get the chance, which I know is privileged to spend most of my time working at stuff that I really enjoy doing, which is genuinely a privilege. Based in Sevenoaks. In Kent. Yeah, that’s Me.
Adam Curtis:
Wow I’m so impressed you fit all of that into one week.
Steve Osei-Mensah:
I didn’t grow. Honestly, I didn’t grow. I just stayed where I was. Yeah.
Adam Curtis:
And there were these things. Any any highlights? Lowlights of working life?
Steve Osei-Mensah:
Oh, yes. The highlights and lowlights. Oh, gosh. Well, there have been lots of both of those. The lowlights has to be the one that just keeps on reoccurring in my memory. When I first left college and went into the world of work, I literally fell into banking. It was, to be honest, the first job that I was offered was Barclays Bank and a real lowlight, When I started work was at that stage, whatever you were going to end up doing, you had to go through a classic retail bank branch, so you had to be a lending officer. You had to be a cashier. Yes. They used to have people handing out cash in those days, not just machines. And I was one of those. And on my first evening and actually if the head cashier was listening to this, she’d probably be wincing as well. I managed to lose rather a lot of money. Wow. And she looked at me and she said, I can’t believe, Stephen, that somebody from you who’s been to college can lose this amount of money. So we’re just going to all wait here while you work out what has happened. And you can imagine as the minutes ticked by and think probably 15 minutes went by and there are a couple of people who are really anxious to get home, but it was rather a lot of money, even back in those days to have lost and reached down into the wastepaper basket. And out came a yellow debit slip. Now you had to have a pink credit slip and a yellow debit slip, and I’d managed to file the pink credit slip in the right place, but I had been the debit slip, which meant that my till was, you know, not balancing to a rather a huge amount. So I learnt a couple of things. Be careful what you file in the bin, do file stuff. And also I learnt a lot about teamwork, like I want to go home. Now and You young whippersnapper are not allowing me to do so. So that’s one excruciating story. There are plenty more where that came from. Good stories. Yeah, lots of those as well. I think probably a story that comes to mind when I was a partner in one of the consultancy firms was one of the members of staff who was working alongside me in the team who got promoted, which was a big deal for him and actually for me. He became a partner and I’d had a little role in helping that happen. And I remember him coming in to tell me the good news, and I was genuinely so pleased for him. And that has been a theme through a lot of my career. It’s just fun helping people be the best that they can be.
Adam Curtis:
Thank you for all these confessions. Can we hear about your story of how you came to know Jesus?
Steve Osei-Mensah:
I came to know Jesus when I was relatively young. My mum and dad were both churchgoers. In fact, my dad was a Baptist pastor, so I thought that that meant that I was, you know, an honorary Christian. And actually it was in Sunday school when I was only seven, where my teacher pointed out that there’s no such thing as an honorary Christian. It is something that you have to encounter for yourself and decide what you’re going to make of Christ. Well, I learnt later, actually, it’s more Christ revealing that to you. I think the key thing for me was would I go to heaven and think I’d assumed I would? And she explained all about sin and rebellion against God and the opportunity He gives us to be right with him. And remember that made a major impression on me. Less so on my dear mum, because I remember rushing back home saying, I have become Christian and I can still remember to this day my mum’s words, which were something like, Well, we’ll see. I think she knew a lot about her son.
Steve Osei-Mensah:
I’m told that there was a bit of a change, but probably not a notable one till I was a teenager. Well, actually late teens when I when I went to college, because there I was away from my parents for my family and had a choice as to what I was going to do. And I think there are a number of choices I made early on in my university life that I really owed to the Lord. There are opportunities to live for Christ, and mercifully, that’s what I chose to do.
Adam Curtis:
And looking at those those early days and sort of had to make a bit more of a stand for Jesus, what did that feel like at the time?
Steve Osei-Mensah:
I recognise I had to make a stand. I went to a school where it was just not popular basically to be a Christian, that’s putting it pretty mildly. When I realised that actually my faith meant something to me and actually affected the way that I lived my life and I had to justify that to 1 or 2 good mates who hadn’t come from my background, didn’t really acknowledge Church as playing any meaningful role. There are a number of times that I thought, actually this has got to mean something to me. And then one of my very good friends at school once asked me to explain. So yeah, Steve, what is a Christian? And I remember that really put me on the spot because it was one thing chatting with fellow Christians about what I knew I believed it was quite another talking to someone who had very little background. And as I stumbled through, he made an interesting comment. He said, Well, I don’t know about what you’ve said, but there’s something about what you do that is of interest to me. And it wasn’t any more positive than that, but that reinforced something that I have held on to actually for a long time since that oftentimes as Christians, we’ve no idea what people are picking up about us, but they are picking up something from us. And oftentimes it will be the quality of the life that the Holy Spirit gives us that will be the thing that will witness or that will will tell out who we really are. You can’t fake it, certainly with friends. You certainly can’t and you can’t with family. Again, a number of members of my extended family who have not really been sort of church type people have commented on my faith down the years, and I’ve found that quite, quite interesting, not the least recently where my nephew actually said to me, Steve, a curate? What on earth is a curate do and why would you want to be one of those? So that was a that was a good challenge to have to explain it Christmas a couple of times ago.
Adam Curtis:
Steve It’s a great prayer for this podcast that it will help new Christians mature in the faith. As you look back over over your Christian life, what’s helped you mature in the faith?
Steve Osei-Mensah:
Undoubtedly God’s Word, that’s probably been the main thing that has helped me mature to begin with as a young Christian and probably I suspect this is the case with lots of Christians, found it quite difficult to know how to read God’s Word. There are bits of it that, frankly, I found extremely boring and tedious and weren’t too sure they were relevant. But a good friend of mine put me onto a Bible reading scheme and I think he knew me well because it was something that I quite liked to be sort of reasonably organised. And he knew that this was something that would, if I stuck with it, would help me get through God’s word in about a year or so. I think the Psalms twice and the rest of God’s word during a year. And I started that on the basis of, Yeah, I should do this. And I kind of, you know, did it when I could. I then listened to a preacher, probably 1990s, somebody who had soaked himself in God’s word for years and years and years. And somebody asked him the question, How long does it take you to prepare a sermon? And he used to preach really good sermons. And to my surprise, he said, well, well, I’m in my 70s now. So I guess in many cases, probably about sort of 50 plus years, that’s as long as I’ve been a Christian. And he genuinely looked at all the time that he’d spent looking at God’s Word, whether it was relevant to what he’d be preaching about or not as relevant in terms of giving the talks he gave. And I remember really being struck by that, and it really revolutionised my reading of God’s word that actually, yeah, there were certain days when deep in perhaps Proverbs or Ezekiel or something, I was thinking, Well, what’s the relevance here? But remembering that actually being immersed in God’s word regularly is just incredibly helpful. We don’t know what it might do, but there were times when Scripture came back really, you know, amazingly to me, just because I’d been reading it through regularly.
Adam Curtis:
And have there been any moments in life which have maybe been more challenging and more hard, and what’s kept you going as a Christian during those times?
Steve Osei-Mensah:
There certainly have been many challenging moments to pick out one that’s sort of. Work related. Nobody told me that when you get to work you. Not necessarily going to be brilliant at what you do. I mean, clearly, I lost some money at well, I did find it again, but I lost some money at a cash till once, as we’ve heard. But nobody told me as well that as life moves on, it gets and can get quite hard. So remember when I was newly married, I was busy trying to get my banking qualifications, which was something on the course that I was on with Barclays We were all encouraged to do so working after work on banking exams and getting used to sort of being married and all that comes with that. I remember going up to London on the train from where we lived one morning thinking, I’m just not enjoying life at the moment. I mean, I’m not, I’m coping with it, but it’s so busy, it’s so pressurised and just prompted to just pray and pray silently on the train on the way up. Lord, I just want to enjoy life once again.
Steve Osei-Mensah:
Now, the answer to that prayer was not immediate, but a few weeks later there was someone in my work who was not a Christian who took the time to take me to one side and just ask, How are things getting on? He wasn’t my boss. He was a senior colleague in the office. He’d obviously noticed that something was up with me. We had a lunch together. I explained all the things I was frustrated with, at least in my work. I was deeply impressed that he would take the time to do this and then realised that actually that was an answer to prayer that I wasn’t looking for. I didn’t know what I was looking for, but the Lord had provided somebody in my workplace who didn’t. Even at that stage you wouldn’t have called himself a Christian, didn’t know whether he does now, but was kind enough just to take time out of his day and say, Hey mate, what’s going on? How is it? And that was just what I needed at the time. Sometimes our prayers can be answered in the most unlikely ways.
Leah Sax:
Hi Delight Podcast family. We gained nearly all of our audience through social media. So every time you share the pod, a post or a blog, it invites new people into our family. So thank you for liking and sharing and subscribing. I know that we go on about it, but it does help. And please do drop us a DM and let us know what you thought of today’s episode or what you’d like to hear in the future. Check out our website at DelightPodcast.com. There you can find transcripts on each episode, more detailed show notes, and the latest blog by Adam on work.
Leah Sax:
Today’s topic feels personal. Every week I introduce myself on the pod as Leah Sax. It’s my professional work name and literally has my work in the title. I’m a saxophonist and work is a huge part of our lives in the UK. The average person will spend over their lifetime 3515 days at work. That’s just over nine and a half years. For some people, work is a means to an end. They need to get bread on the table. For others, work is their identity, their status symbol, and they always need to reach higher. And for others, the very contemporary term quiet quitters of this world, work is just something to endure rather than enjoy. So which motivation is right? What is the purpose of our work?
Steve Osei-Mensah:
I’m tempted to say none of the above. Frankly, all of the choices you’ve given have got their own motivations and probably merits. But I genuinely believe from a Christian perspective, if Jesus is Lord of all of our lives, including therefore the part of our lives that is in paid work for those of us who have it, then he’s lord of that as well. So I take quite seriously the challenge that Paul gave to the Corinthian Christians. I think it’s 1 Corinthians 15:58. He talks about brothers and sisters standing firm and says, Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord because you know your labour in the Lord is not in vain. You can argue the toss as to whether our work is the work of the Lord, but I think for me the logic is, well, God has created everything. He’s created us, He’s created work for us to do. We can certainly chat about work that may not be great for us to do, and I’m a great believer in understanding that. And I also acknowledge there’ll be a number of people listening to this, and there are many people in our world who just don’t have a choice of the work they do. But nevertheless, I think there are a number of examples and again, we can come to them in Scripture where even if you don’t have a choice, the way in which we work can be done to God’s glory, even if it’s a very mundane task.
Steve Osei-Mensah:
And certainly my experience has been in working life of all sorts. Gosh, it makes a huge difference how people show up in the morning. It really does. It makes an even bigger difference if people are consistent in the way that they show up. And I think that’s a gentle challenge for us as Christians. Yeah. How do we show up? Are we going in Because we we really do need the money from that work and there’s nothing wrong with that. But is that our only motivator, or are we saying, Yes, Lord, thanks, I’m going to get money for this, but actually I’m going to give you the glory, by the way, that I do my work today. For some of us, that’s not going to be easy, and I accept that for other of us, us, as we were talking earlier, if you’ve got work that you enjoy, then obviously it may be a lot easier to think and pray that way. But even for work that might be drudgery, might be repetitive, might be difficult. I think genuinely thinking, hang on, if I’m Christ’s and this is the Lord’s and he is my boss, ultimately, then how am I going to work for him today.
Leah Sax:
If we are saying we’re working everything for the Lord? Does that mean that we should be working in a specific, say, church orientated job?
Steve Osei-Mensah:
Absolutely not. And a number of us sort of church leaders hearing this hopefully would violently agree. The great thing about being a Christian and we see it illustrated in Scripture is there’s a whole variety of things that God might call us to do. In fact, God being a God of diversity in his creation and everything he does, the chances are we are going to be doing very different things. And even if I found a fellow banker, they would be doing, I’m sure, banking very different to the way that I was doing it. So it’s great just to consider that. Yes, Another reason for giving over our work to the Lord and wanting to give our best to the Lord in work is because he’s uniquely created us and designed us potentially with gifts and skills that nobody else has got and possibly nobody else in the workplace that we’re in. So if we can bring all of that to bear on whatever it is that has been given to us, that might make a huge difference. And the reason why I’m excited about that is a lot of people sometimes, yeah, do see whoever it is at the front of church as kind of the be all and end all from a Christian perspective. My view on that is absolutely not. If it’s on a Sunday, then hopefully that person is a little bit like a modern day coach encouraging us to worship the Lord together, but then sending us out to live and work for him during the week. That’s what it really should be. The hard work is done usually during the working hours of the day where they’re going to be. A lot of people, by definition surrounding us who probably won’t come to church, probably won’t read a Bible, but they might see our lives and they might see that God is important to us.
Leah Sax:
So in the 9 to 5 or is in my life the 5 to 9, how do we glorify God? Like, what does that look like?
Steve Osei-Mensah:
A really good question. A good place to start is talk to God and ask God, How does this work? How does what I do glorify you? And I think that process of talking to the Lord and for sure in my experience, he will answer. He may answer through a friend, answer through Scripture. He may just put something into your head. But I think that very act of saying, you know, this is really important. As you said, all of those years that you spend in a typical working life, working for a living, let me give that to the Lord and let me ask him, how can I glorify you in that? I mean, there are a number of things that come to mind that I’m sure will be in the line of many of our listeners. One of the aspects is just doing what you do really well. I think it is so important to do what you do really well. How many times Have we particular if we’re being served by someone? Don’t know. We’ve got to stay somewhere or we’re eating a meal with friends. The meal is well prepared. It’s well presented. It’s well served to us. How many times do we just give some silent thanks? Well, hopefully we do more than that to whoever’s waiting on us, so it doesn’t matter what is being done. Talking about music earlier. So music that is played really, really well, that’s well choreographed, well put together, even in a setting that might not be brilliant, even if the amplification is not great, sometimes you can tell, Hang on a minute, that is really skilful.
Steve Osei-Mensah:
But probably the most important thing of all is just figuring out who’s a boss. I mean, most of us will have an earthly boss, but if we can see through our boss, and I don’t mean that in the wrong sense, but see through our boss to the person, we’re really doing it for the Lord Jesus Christ, then will that raise the quality of what we do? Well, hopefully. But hopefully we’ll realise whatever we do, he sees it might also encourage us to pray for our boss. And I’ve been a number of workplaces where I’ve encouraged people to do that. Christians, that is, And some who’ve never done that before, never thought that they should, never thought that they could. It’s quite an amazing thing to do. If people haven’t done it, I’d encourage you to do so. Just hang on there because you might get some interesting answers to those prayers. It might open up some conversations or you might not have any conversation with your boss, but actually praying for the person who runs the work that you’re doing and praying that you will be a blessing to them as much as serving the Lord is also important.
Adam Curtis:
Can you give me an example? How could I? Oh, I realise now I work for a church, so maybe it’s an easy thing to pray for my boss. But back when I worked in a student union, how could I pray for my boss there?
Steve Osei-Mensah:
It’s good just to bring these things to the Lord and figure out. So who is the boss? Mean again? You know, you will know from where you were in a student union. When I was in partnership, I figured out I had several bosses and actually, therefore it became a complicated prayer. It became a prayer. I needed to be praying. My ultimate boss was not my partnership, actually, not my fellow partners. The chair of our organisation was often saying, You know, I am not the boss here. I’m just corralling all of us together. Our real boss is our clients. And so actually figuring out who was my client, who was my real client, what was it that they wanted me to do? What would benefit them? Sometimes I had to distinguish what would benefit them, what would benefit the firm, what would benefit the people we were working with? How do you pull all those things together? So sometimes thinking about that can be helpful. And you’re right, sometimes it’s not straightforward. So sometimes it is. Who are who are the people I’m serving here? Who is benefiting from what it is I am doing? And again, even if that is hidden from you. So just a little example. I ordered something off Amazon a little while ago and it was just amazingly wrapped. I mean, probably over wrapped. And I just remember thinking, I’m really excited by what it is I’ve ordered here, but I’m actually quite excited by the care that somebody paid attention to in terms of sending it on. And somebody had to have done that because it was a second hand got through that particular service. So somebody had carefully wrapped up this particular item. That’s another good example. You know, it may be stuff we’re doing that is not seen by anybody at the time, but the impact of that might be seen way down the line and could be really important.
Leah Sax:
So we’ve talked about doing a really good job. Does that mean that we have to do jobs that we like? Is there a right or wrong job for us to do? Does God care which job we do?
Steve Osei-Mensah:
That’s a really good question. I’m not too sure I fully know the answer to that. If I’m perfectly honest. I do think it’s something to go back to the Lord with. When I say I don’t know the answer to that, if I’m perfectly honest, I think it’s fairly clear from Scripture there are certain jobs that will probably not be a good idea to do. You know, deciding that you’re going to go into a cartel that robs people and beats people up, it’s probably not very compatible with our faith at all. Extortion is probably not a good idea. Bribery is not a good idea. There’s a long list, isn’t there? But think in terms of the specific job. I don’t know the answer to your question because I think the Lord has created each of us unique. I remember talking to somebody in one of the congregations I was at some years ago about something distinctly right and something distinctly wrong, and she said that in her walk with the Lord Jesus Christ, she’d realised that there were certain things that were right and wrong, but equally the Lord was the Lord of second chances. And sometimes there was something that wasn’t brilliant, but on the other hand, it wasn’t terrible and it was amazing that the Lord could work through it.
Steve Osei-Mensah:
So a good example to me in Scripture is the girl with no name, the girl in the Old Testament. We don’t know the name to who was the slave girl, to a person called Naaman, who was very, very ill. And this slave girl basically sort of said to her mistress, Naaman’s wife, Oh, I just wish that Naaman knew about the prophet that I know of in Samaria, because, you know, if you went to him, he’d be healed. And basically that’s exactly what Naaman did. And that’s always spoken to me that, you know, gosh, that girl we know because of the scripture around it was probably trafficked was definitely captured from her nation, taken to a pagan nation. And yet it’s recorded for all time and posterity that she cared so deeply for her boss. That’s a bit of an extreme example. And don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying we should rush out and go into really, really challenging work. What I’m saying is if we’re in a circumstance where we are in a challenging work situation as Christians, we should think carefully and certainly bring it to the Lord. Lord, why am I here? Maybe there’s a very good reason why you are in that particular workplace. The knee jerk reaction might be, Well, I’ll move away from this as quickly as I could.
Steve Osei-Mensah:
Or it might be that actually the Lord means to bless not only you, but somebody else through it. I would put in a very strong disclaimer, though, around that. I think in my professional experience there are a number of people who are in the wrong workplace. I think we’re getting much closer in our language and our culture to understanding not just mental health, but mental wellness as a positive. And I’ve certainly worked with and coached with a number of people who are just in a really difficult situation where actually the sensible thing might be to say, Hang on, are my gifts and skills being best used in this context. So where you have a choice, again, I think as a Christian, that’s a good thing to think about. You know, am I in the place that I should be that really fits me? And I think we can be confident asking that question because the Lord is gracious in answering. And sometimes in my own experience, it’s been clear that this is the place I should be, that there frankly isn’t an option. And the real option is to stick with it and to work hard for him. Other times you pray that prayer and something comes up.
Leah Sax:
So if your job hunting is are you looking for something that fits me or are you thinking, Where can I serve the Lord? Is it always about fitting what you want to do? When is work sacrifice?
Steve Osei-Mensah:
Yeah, that’s a really, really good question. And again, difficult to give a sort of definitive answer on all of that. There is an aspect, of course, of both that actually it’s just good, isn’t it, to recognise the skills and qualities that we have and if we can avoid it, not to put ourselves in a situation where frankly we’re just not fitted to the work we’re doing. I mean, why would we do that? We might if we’re absolutely forced to. But to to choose that is just not a wise, wise thing, is it? On the other hand, I’ve known people who have said, No, I’m going to stay where I am. I’m thinking of a couple of people, as I say this, who gave up what a lot of people would say, quite successful careers because either of a family or a life stage. In one case, I can think of one person who said, no, I really genuinely think I’m a witness here to the Lord Jesus Christ and I think I should stay. So actually turned down a potential promotion somewhere else. There’s no hard and fast rule, but I think the opportunity to take that decision, job hunting, what am I going to look for and pray about it? I mean, as Christians, we should be doing that, but genuinely offering that to the Lord and saying, Hey, if this is here to serve you, then what would be the best place to do that? And with that, sometimes as Christians, I think it’s helpful to grow in our understanding that God actually really does want good for us.
Steve Osei-Mensah:
Sometimes we can say that, and there’s a little bit of a sense of, Oh, crumbs, you know, what might God give me to do? You mentioned the word sacrifice. Will it be something I’d hate to do? Well, even talking to Christians who’ve been in work situations that have been hugely challenging, I mean, really seriously challenging, where they’ve been threatened with with some sort of injury or worse, typically because of their faith, not because of the dangerous work they do. I’ve met few who’ve said God was not in this. In fact, those are often the ones who testified to the fact that the Lord was the one that prompted them to stay, and they’re really glad they did. So oftentimes I think we fear more than is really the case. And the Lord wants to lead us into good things. Sometimes we just need to pray with that in mind.
Leah Sax:
Is work therefore just an evangelising opportunity to tell people about Jesus?
Steve Osei-Mensah:
No, it’s not. It’s way more than that, isn’t it? Work is an opportunity to glorify the Lord in all that we are. That’s not just in what we say, it’s just who we are. So I’m a great believer in doing work Well, whatever it is, I think to do work badly is not only dishonouring to the Lord, but it’s not really honouring to ourselves. And I appreciate we have good days and bad days and there are certainly days that I do not want to remember to set out to really try and do a good job. And even when things are going badly to be constantly in prayer in terms of Lord, how can I live even in the midst of maybe a chaotic day where things haven’t gone the way that I thought, Guess my accent would be to point people to him, hopefully by more what we do and who we are than just what we say. A well said word is helpful, but if that is somehow denied by well, you say this, but that’s not the way you live. You say this, but I don’t see that at work. We might have excellent motives, but we might just be undoing ourselves by our actions.
Adam Curtis:
No, I really hear that. There’s got to be integrity, hasn’t there? Yeah. We’re working for the Lord to serve those people around us. Then that will show the integrity of the faith that we have. And hopefully that will open more doors and make it easier to speak about Jesus rather than harder.
Steve Osei-Mensah:
I think that’s right. But I think equally, we don’t have to be obsessed by that. Of course you can have some fun with this. So I heard a funny but true story on this. A good friend of mine who used to some years ago be part of a large broking firm, was aware of the fact that you weren’t really meant to bring your faith to work. That was the kind of culture of the firm. So I think it was one Christmas time he put a series of a very popular tract on everybody’s desk. Anyway, the boss of the trading floor got to hear this. So he was summoned to the boss’s office. And the boss, in no uncertain terms, said, You should not do this. You know, I want you to write an email to the entire company apologising for what you’ve done, lest you’ve. Did anyone never do this again? So my friend wrote an email to people to say, That tract that I left on your desk, I should never have left it on your desk. I’m so sorry. Please do not read it. In fact, I encourage you definitely never to read it again. And of course, he had several people coming back to him saying the tract. Where was it? Can I have another one?
Steve Osei-Mensah:
Um, so the. Second time around, his boss actually smiled and said, Well, perhaps you can meet with some of your friends, but could you do it in an organised way and try not to leave things on people’s desks?
Leah Sax:
If you work in an environment where, as your you mentioned just now with your friend, you’re not supposed to bring a religion to work. How does a believer work in those circumstances other than say, doing a really good job? Are we still called despite that, to tell people about Jesus.
Steve Osei-Mensah:
You’ll need to probably work this out for yourself. But in my experience, there are many, many ways to explain the gospel we believe in. A really good guide for this is the used to work for the London Institute for Contemporary Christianity has on its website http://www.licc.org, a really lovely short series of videos. It’s called the Six M’s. After modelling Godly character, making good work and ministering Grace and Just justice, six different things that you can think of as a Christian. But the beautiful thing is they produced a series of 45 second videos. One features a barista, one features a taxi driver, one features a young mum. All people just going about their work, and they make the really powerful point that it’s the quality of the work we do that often gets people questioning, you know, why do you do that? Particularly if that work is repetitive or if you’ve had a bad day or whatever it might be. So I think there is an opportunity here, even if you’re in a work culture that says, listen, could you just leave faith things to one side to to live out your faith? But the other thing is you’ve implied is I think it’s good to challenge that. But from a good space, not not sort of, you know, face to face, but actually to ask actually, why is that the case? I know a number of cultures now that are as even as they can be.
Steve Osei-Mensah:
So actually they do want you to bring your faith to work because they want to bring your whole self to work. That’s often the phrase that’s used. So not only are they interested in having special events for different religious societies or groups, but again, provided you’re open about it and you invite everybody in the company to a particular event, in some cases, companies will sponsor that on the basis that we like to show that we are open to all different types of people and that includes their faith. So think inquiring, you know of your HR director or ultimate boss. Listen, what’s our policy on this? Again, that’s an opportunity for us as Christians to be super generous. Was working with a company that had done this and actually the head of the Christian group that met was giving advice to the local Hindu group and to the Jewish group and to the Islamic group as to how they could also form. They said, Well, listen, we’ve been able to do this by our employer. There’s no reason why can’t pass that on to others. And as a result, the HR person said, listen, you know, not only am I delighted that you’ve done this, could you help other minorities to to to register with us in that in that way.
Leah Sax:
We’re Going to shift our direction slightly. For somebody who loves their work, I definitely fall into that category. How can we enjoy work without making it everything, making it an identity, just being about chasing the dream and the status and all of that.
Steve Osei-Mensah:
The key to that for me is that word identity. And. Whereas, our identity found in terms of enjoyment of work and this applies just as much to any form of work really, you’re right in what you imply. Sometimes you can enjoy work so much that it just becomes your life. Yeah, just being clear. As a Christian, where is our identity from? What is a unique identity that the Lord Jesus Christ given has given me, has given you? What’s my gifting? What do I enjoy doing? What do other people tell me is enjoying enjoyable and also in the context, particularly of work? What is it that I do that actually helps other people to enjoy what they’re doing? Because sometimes that helpfully takes the focus away from us and then what’s our identity in Christ? So looking at one’s work circumstance, even if one enjoys it, as one enjoys it and say, Is there anything here that might be just so enjoying that? Actually, I just need to think a little bit more carefully. Maybe it’s something that’s just taking up a huge amount of my time and I’m ignoring my friends. I’m ignoring my family. Maybe it’s taking up a huge amount of my time and energy and don’t have energy for other things in my life that I should. So again, it’s just taking stock before God. Enjoyment is great, but actually, how can I make sure that that’s something that is enriching and innovating particularly to other people? That’s often a really useful guide if I’m getting intense enjoyment out of it, but nobody else is, there might be Something slightly wrong there. Yeah, just might.
Leah Sax:
And what if we were to flip the table completely? What about somebody who is just enduring it? They need to put bread on the table or they they feel like their work isn’t giving them enough to put bread on the table. Like I’m working so hard. How is God providing I’m. I’m struggling. How what would we say to that person?
Steve Osei-Mensah:
Well, again, our identity is in Christ and this is the same Christ who said to his disciples that the yoke that he placed on them and different people interpret that different ways, but the special work that he has for them to do the way they are to be is light. He said, and is easy. Don’t think that was that he meant that they would have an easy life. Clearly his disciples didn’t, but think there can be a satisfaction or, as Paul puts it, a contentment in what we do. So think if somebody is really discontent, intensely discontent, because this is difficult, it’s hard. I’m just not getting anything out of it. That is definitely something to take to the Lord Jesus Christ because he understands us fully just to ask him to plead with Him, Lord, what should I do in this situation? I’ve walked with people who have been in that situation. I’ve had 1 or 2 roles that have been like that where the clear answer was, Stay with it. This is where I want you to be, but I’ll give you the grace to bear the situation at this time. And in my experience, I can think of one situation where I did that and I look back now and I am so pleased that I did because there was fruit that came out of that. I needed to be patient in a certain place. I needed, frankly, to learn from my mistakes, and I would not have been able to do some of the things that I did do subsequently if I hadn’t have done that.
Steve Osei-Mensah:
But as a young person, as a young employee, I didn’t know that I was impatient. I wanted to move on. I do think it’s worth taking seriously that if there’s a choice involved and for some people they may think, well, it’s a very narrow choice. Nonetheless, giving that back to the Lord and saying, Lord, what would you have me do? Because I think sometimes there are people who get stuck in a situation that is just not great for them. And there are some other alternatives. You know, I’d be very, very wary of saying to someone, Well, just endure. That might be entirely the wrong thing. Take it to the Lord, take it with a trusted Christian friend to the Lord, chat it over. You may have some options around either the way you work or even what you work at that actually a friend might help you see that perhaps you can’t, and it’s really important to do that. But think where you’re in a situation. I’ve certainly been there myself, where it’s difficult, it’s hard, and the answer seems to be no. Stick with it. You know the Lord is faithful. And certainly my testimony would be down the years. There’s been some things where actually, in a sense, I’m pleased he didn’t answer that prayer to move on. But that’s not what I was saying at the time.
Leah Sax:
So whether we stick with the job or we choose to seek a different job, how much is income and salary part of a decision? Is there such thing as too low or too high a salary?
Steve Osei-Mensah:
I think there is such a thing as too low or too high a salary, and I think there are a number of people who can help us with that. And in just a little bit of research around what our people paid for, this role is not a bad thing. There’s no point in walking to a situation where one’s being exploited in some way. On the too low, Yes, I think as Christians we are responsible to the Lord again for our lives. And some some of us will have responsibilities to family or friends or whatever. So it’s really important to take that responsibility seriously. Some of us may not feel we’ve got responsibility, but that might be because a member of family has taken responsibility for us. And again, it’s really important in our working lives, particularly perhaps at the start of our working lives, that we take that into account. So we might be tempted to say, well, hey, you know, I’m living at home, I don’t have too many expenses so I can afford I can afford to do this, but I think it would be a good Christian thing to be praying around that and saying, hang on, what is my family? Who’s looking after me at this stage? Could I afford to give back to them too much? Well, I’m reminded of that person in history who I will not name, but there was a person in history I’m showing my age who went around with a t shirt, sort of saying, Am I rich enough? I wouldn’t ascribe to that particular doctrine at all.
Steve Osei-Mensah:
I think for a Christian, that is an important challenge. There are so many people in this world who have very little on which to live. And let’s face it, pretty much all of us listening to this podcast and certainly living in this area of the world in a very rich area of the world. Nonetheless, I think if you are given an opportunity legitimately to earn a lot of money, what an opportunity to serve the Lord with it. And that can be a variety of different things. I love a particular pastor friend of mine, he used to say his definition of figuring that one out was How much do you need to live on? And then what are you going to do with the rest? Where are you going to give it in terms of the Lord’s work? And he didn’t mean to his church, by the way. He wasn’t that kind of person. There is that opportunity if you’re earning a lot to say, Well, all of this is the Lord’s, frankly, because if I am the Lord’s, by definition, any gifts, any talents, anything that I may get is His.
Steve Osei-Mensah:
So how can I use what he’s given me? There’s a tremendous opportunity. And on that one, I just simply think, Leah, a lot of people get quite excited about rights in terms of earning money. The responsibility is is pretty significant too. And that comes, I think, with some joy. I mean, again, in Scripture, it’s very clear with a couple of parables that Jesus told that actually there was a high responsibility on those who were given a lot to do something with that lot. There was also a significant amount of. With people who actually were given very little, but even with the little they had did something with it or didn’t in one case. So I think bringing all of that to the Lord, there’s no hard and fast rule, but saying, hey, this is actually yours. So if it’s too little, am I more responsible for actually gaining more to help the people that I’m you put me with? And if it’s a lot or even too much. Yeah, maybe it is too much. Maybe that’s your opportunity to invest that in ways that would really bless other people. And you have a choice to do that. Bringing that before the Lord is a good thing to do to.
Leah Sax:
When Steve asked the question, Who is our boss? Actually, that kind of supersedes and guides every question because it gives us the answer to every outcome. That was very deep, isn’t it?
Adam Curtis:
You’re a very deep person, Leah. Don’t put yourself down. Amen. Yeah. Who is our boss? And when we’ve established who our ultimate boss is, because actually he had sort of multidimensions to that question. Who is our boss? Who is our ultimate boss, but then also who is our boss in this situation? Or who are the people I work for and how can I pray for them? And actually, that’s a lovely, beautiful, practical sort of outworking. Yeah, I liked how holistic it was about our whole lives. With all of life, we can glorify God and we love all of life. We can demonstrate the gifts of the spirit.
Leah Sax:
Steve, It’s time for our bonus question and for this season it is. If you could give a new believer one piece of advice, what would it be?
Steve Osei-Mensah:
Well I Think for me it would be just to to read God’s word. I think that’s what it would be, find a way of doing it that is comfortable to use. Some people find that listening to God’s word being read is great. Find a version of God’s Word that’s faithful, that is accessible because that’s how he speaks to us. And that is just so valuable in all the complexities of life by whatever form you can get into God’s Word.
Leah Sax:
This is season four wrapped. Can you believe it, Adam?
Adam Curtis:
I actually can’t. I actually can’t believe that we’ve got to this stage, but praise the Lord that we have.
Leah Sax:
So thank you so much for tuning in. This is Adam and Leah, delightfully signing off.
Adam Curtis:
Bye bye.
Leah Sax:
Bye.
Delight Podcast 