Leah Sax:
Hello and welcome to Episode 26 of Delight Podcast. I’m Leah Sax.
Adam Curtis:
Hello, and I’m Adam Curtis.
Leah Sax:
Adam, I cannot believe we are well on our way into season six. How are you feeling about season six so far?
Adam Curtis:
Oh, I’m just loving it. That opening episode with Jubi. The stories, the laughter, the joy and the wisdom about God’s guidance. Oh, it was just top stuff.
Leah Sax:
Top stuff. We’ve got more top stuff coming today. Today our guest is Inonge Siluka. She is basically a woman of about a billion talents. She runs a charity called Restored Hope Zambia. She’s a blogger, a vlogger, also a radio host. I learnt today as well, I know.
Adam Curtis:
Is there anything she doesn’t do?
Leah Sax:
A podcast? Oh no, she maybe she even does that. Who even knows? Our topic today will be looking at justice. We also just wanted to give you a heads up that we will be talking about abuse in today’s episode.
Adam Curtis:
Well, hello to our guest today. And Inonge.
Inonge Siluka:
Hello.
Adam Curtis:
Hi. Hello. It is so good to have you here on the show with us. And, Inonge, now, I’ve had the joy of getting to know you when we worked for UCF up together in Scotland. But all our lovely listeners won’t have had that privilege. In 30seconds. Just who are you and what do you do? Right now, I’m in charge.
Inonge Siluka:
I’m a Christian. I’m a Zambian Scot, I love sport. Um, I love Jesus and telling people about him. I’m a blogger, I’m a charity founder, and I work for charity.
Adam Curtis:
And and you also and I only discovered this today also host a radio show.
Inonge Siluka:
Yes, yes, I do that too.
Inonge Siluka:
Recently. It’s a recent thing. So I forget to add it in. But yes. Yeah. I host a radio show on an African radio station in Scotland. Go on.
Leah Sax:
Then. What’s the radio station? What’s the show?
Inonge Siluka:
Oh, okay. We’re trying to tease it out. Um, so the station is called Jambo Radio. So Jambo with an exclamation mark, like Jambo, Jambo Radio. The show is fortnightly on Saturdays called exploring Faith with Inonge, and I pretty much talk about everything to do with the church, Christianity, Jesus, the Bible, but tailored more towards an African community.
Adam Curtis:
Amazing. Could you maybe tell us how you came to know the Lord Jesus for yourself?
Inonge Siluka:
So I grew up in Zambia, which is a very religious country. I think the last census, it was like 95% of the population identify as Christian. Obviously, not everyone would understand maybe what the gospel is or would be active in their Christian faith. But people like to have proximity to Christianity. Like even the thief will rob you and then they’ll be like, Thank God he provided for my food. So it’s that kind of, like it is that vibe.
Adam Curtis:
Yeah. Yeah Yeah.
Inonge Siluka:
So, um, so, so growing up, I grew up in a Christian home as well. Went to church, Sunday school. I think you just assume you’re sort of Christian because you’re surrounded by Christian things and going to Christian things, and everybody around you prays and does all the religious things. And I was quite a goody two shoes growing up. Like, I just was that person that did as I was told. So I was quite comfortable in, in that sort of religious setting. And it wasn’t until I went to like a Christian camp where I think I heard the gospel explained in a way that I understood anyway, that I thought applied to me, as it’s not about being a good person or doing good things. You actually, um, you need to believe in the gospel of Jesus for yourself and ask for forgiveness. It’s a personal thing. It’s not something you you get by heritage. So. So for me, I think I just it just clicked. So I was about 12, 13 somewhere there in Zambia. I decided I think Jesus is is great, I think I need him, I need I need forgiveness. And I prayed to God, I guess in childlike faith would say that’s where my journey of faith started from.
Adam Curtis:
Amazing child like faith. Starting young. And that’s encouraging, particularly for people like Leah and I, who we became friends leading on a youth camp. So that’s encouraging to hear these stories. Actually, yeah. At youth camps, kids come to know Jesus Christ. But obviously that was now a few years ago. I won’t say how many years ago. As you reflect over that time over these years, how do you think the Lord has matured you and how have you grown in him?
Inonge Siluka:
Actually links in with what we’re going to be talking about today. Adam. Since then, there’s a lot of suffering, I think, in my life, in my own life, but also like seeing it in other people’s lives. And I think when I was a younger Christian, you know, I moved from that religious setting in, in Zambia to Scotland. So I went from a girls Catholic boarding school in a very religious country to a high school in Paisley.
Inonge Siluka:
Which like mixed like honestly, people were like, yeah, it was a difficult transition. My first class, I think first day of school or second day RE lessons were making fun of Christianity and the Bible. I really struggled through my teen years, and then I think through getting involved with the Christian unions. Actually, I became interested in apologetics. So topics around the Christian faith and understanding what we believe and why, and answering big questions because I really wanted Christianity to be true and to be relevant and like, intellectually viable. And so I was really interested in like the answers, like, what’s the right answer to this question? Like, you present a problem or question, I want to know the right answer. And I think God moved me from that to where I am to actually, sometimes it’s not just about the nice, neat, tidy answers. Actually, life is more complex than that a lot of the time. And yet in the midst of the chaos and the difficult questions just centring it around Jesus a lot more, I think I’m less. This is the right answer to your theological question, and more how does Jesus fit into this and how does he respond, I guess, to this big question or this dilemma.
Inonge Siluka:
So I think I’m a lot more dependent, not necessarily on my theological knowledge or Bible knowledge or the answers to all the big questions, but dependent on Jesus and how he is the answer in some way, and not in a simplistic Jesus, but how in some kind of way you can always find a way to. Actually, Jesus is a person who wants to point to Jesus as a person you want to rely on. Jesus is the person through whom all hope points to. And so I think I’ve come to that place of weakness. I think a lot in recent years where I’m just like, gosh, I thought I got it, but I don’t think I get half of it. But it’s okay because I trust in the one who gets it all. And so I think that’s been the big turning point for me. It’s been quite a dramatic, quite dramatic journey in that regard.
Adam Curtis:
Oh no, I hear that because we do, don’t we? We want a textbook answer. And yet the reality is, when we come to God’s Word, we don’t get offered a textbook answer. We get offered a relationship with the divine. And there’s something more scary, more uncertain about that, but also in more beautiful, more true. Moving from your personal story of your walk with the Lord Jesus Christ. Now to your charity work with restored hope, Zambia. What caused you to start that charity?
Inonge Siluka:
So I started the charity in the middle of lockdown in 2020, off the back of some conversations with people that I knew that had experienced clergy abuse or abuse in the church, and from a conversation with a friend of mine, one particular conversation she’d just been through a horrible experience. People didn’t understand what she had been through. People were dismissive of her experience, and there was just a lot. It was just a messy situation. And I remember in the conversation, she said, I just wish there was something that helped people understand safeguarding and what abuse is and how perpetrators work, and also how to actually help survivors, because she found that it took a long time for her to get healing that she needed, and she felt if she had had that earlier, it would have been really helpful for her. So then I was like, why don’t I start that charity? Because I didn’t know how else to help. I can try and do that. Then I would help my friend, people like her and many other survivors. So that was where the vision came from. It was a few survivors, but one particular conversation with one survivor highlighting a need and me thinking, I think God has given me the gifts to be able to find a way to meet that need.
Leah Sax:
If you’re enjoying Delight Podcast, why not consider rating or reviewing us on your listening app of choice? It really does make a massive difference. And if you’re particularly enjoying today’s episode, why not share it on socials? You can also find us at Delight Podcast on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok. Thank you for being a part of the Delight Podcast family.
Leah Sax:
Injustice is everywhere. Whether it’s an unfairness in your child’s classroom. A boss who mistreats you. Social injustice in your local neighbourhood or international human rights. Everywhere we see brokenness. Inonge, If we know God to be sovereign, how can he be good if he allows injustice to happen?
Inonge Siluka:
Big question, one that I don’t think has a nice, neat, tidy answer either. Honestly, it’s one that I constantly still wrestle with. Just four things that I think I would want to say in response to that. And they’re all centred around what either what God has said or what he has done or is doing about injustice. And so my confidence in the goodness of God, even in a world with injustice, is because, firstly, of what he has said about injustice is something I’ve been noticing throughout the Bible that God has a lot to say about injustice. He is constantly calling out his people in the Old Testament for practising injustice. Like a lot of the judgement that we see on God’s people in the Old Testament is because they failed to practice mercy and justice and love kindness. And God was saying, you’ve messed up by not practising justice. And so that shows me that he is a God that cares and that injustice is happening. So he’s not indifferent to to injustices. And there’s loads of Bible verses on that throughout the Old Testament. And then the second one is how he then responds to injustices. So I mentioned, obviously the judgement that we see on Israel, God’s people. And one of the reasons for God’s judgement is that they are mistreating people, they are mistreating the foreigner, they are mistreating each other. And there’s a lot of injustice going on. And God says that that’s not reflective of what you’re supposed to be as my people.
Inonge Siluka:
It’s not reflective of my character. And so you see how he responds to that. And there’s a particular passage in Ezekiel, in the Bible, Ezekiel 34, where God is speaking to the the leaders of Israel, and he has condemnation. A woe unto you, shepherds of Israel, for you do not take care of my sheep. You know he is condemning them for harming his people, but also for failing to take care of them. And and in that chapter, God promises to step into the situation himself. He says, I will take care of my people. I will take care of my sheep. And you see the fulfilment of that promise in the God man, Jesus in the New Testament. Because when Jesus comes, he speaks of himself in that language. He speaks of himself using the iambs as a reflection of God in the Old Testament. And Jesus says, unlike the shepherds of the Old Testament who were practising injustice, I am the good shepherd, and the good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep. So Jesus is essentially saying, I am the fulfilment of that promise. That said, the leaders have messed up. You’ve practised injustice. I will be the one who is the good shepherd, who shows what good leadership, what good care and love is. And I will do that by laying down my life. And we see that ultimately demonstrated at the cross where we see the love of God on display as Jesus dies for the world, giving up his life.
Inonge Siluka:
So you see that about, you know, this is something that God has done about injustice, but also when when you look, um, just following through the thread into the New Testament, you just look at how Jesus responds to injustice in his earthly life. You know, in the Pharisees, he condemns the Pharisees a lot of the time in the Gospels, um, for taking advantage of people, for misrepresenting God’s law and making it about greed, about themselves instead of acts of mercy and acts of justice and kindness. And we see how he gets alongside the outsider. So you could say people who are experiencing injustices in some regard. Jesus is the one who gets alongside those people. And so we see that he cares. You know, through through Jesus, we see a God who steps down into a world and cares about about injustices. So what he has said about injustice, how he has responded to injustice, what he has done about injustice. When we see that the cross and then finally and I think this is what keeps me going and what he has promised to do about injustice, there’s passages in revelation, the last book of the Bible, that promise a world of justice, where all the wrongs will be made right. It promises a world when Jesus comes back, where there will be no pain or suffering or death or the source of those things.
Inonge Siluka:
So a lot of injustice. The source of that is sin, its greed, its selfishness, its anger, its malice. It’s all of these things, and there will be no sin in the new world that Jesus will recreate, and therefore there will be no injustice. I come from Zambia where with the work I do with Zambia, there’s so many people who never get justice because of corruption. But Jesus promises to be the perfect judge. Nobody can corrupt him. He doesn’t need a lawyer to present evidence because he sees and knows all things. And so for me, that future hope of actually it’s not that God is indifferent and doesn’t care. He sees it. And and we know we’re suffering that suffering of injustice comes from. But he promises to put an end to it. It’s just that the hope of injustice come to an end is tied to the root cause of that injustice coming to an end, to which is the end of sin, death and all of that, the effects of the fall and sin. And so I would say, as much as experientially can be difficult to do with injustice. I can trust in this Jesus because of what I see throughout the Scripture of of his character and his love and his care and the fact that he’s he’s not indifferent and there is future hope for an end to all injustices.
Leah Sax:
You’ve put this beautiful picture about God caring about injustice, responding what he’s done, this promise of future Hope, and it’s a beautiful way to start our podcast on the topic of justice. Before we get into further details, is there a difference between injustice and suffering, or are they the same thing?
Inonge Siluka:
I would say that suffering is broader, so suffering is a kind of encompasses a broader experience of, I guess, a painful human experiences. So you could be experiencing suffering because of illness or because of grief or something else. I think justice is usually tied to people. So people experience injustice when they’re treated unfairly or they’re not treated impartially, or somebody gets away with, you know, without receiving the justice or getting the punishment they deserve for something that they did wrong. Injustice is usually tied to people’s actions, people’s sinful actions or systems. Sometimes we experience injustices because of systems. So it’s very difficult to pinpoint a single person that did a thing. But systems are created by people, and if sinful people create systems sometimes. Those systems will have an effect of creating injustices. And we see that in society with racism, for example, which has, you know, there will be individual situations of that kind of injustice. But we see the system is systemic effects of that. It could be, you know, poverty or just so many different areas.
Leah Sax:
What does the Bible teach us about justice? Why should the Christian, the believer, care about justice?
Inonge Siluka:
I think I would want to start at the start of the Bible. I mentioned that justice is usually about people and how we treat people and treating them fairly. So we can start by asking, you know, why should we treat people fairly? Why should we care about people in the first place? Right? Because some people would say, well, it is what it is. Life sucks sometimes, you know, we’re all just, you know, a bunch of atoms floating around and insignificant species. And so I think a helpful place to start is, why do we care about people? Why do people matter? And in Genesis, the Bible tells us that because they are made in the image of God. So God makes he could have made us as angels, you know, um, or some kind of weird floating spirits. But we are made with bodies. We are made in God’s image, with inherent worth, with inherent value and dignity, and therefore worthy of protection, worthy of respect, worthy of love and care, and where they have been treated fairly, regardless of who we are or where we’ve come from, our backgrounds. Because that’s the image of God. Because of the image of God, we ought to care about people and the injustices that they experience because they are image bearers in that regard.
Inonge Siluka:
And then the second thing would be, I think we ought to care about justice because God does. He is a God of justice. He is called love. God is called love. In the Bible he is called holy. He is called just as well. And so the justice of God and His care for justice is actually an extension of his character. And if we are to love God as Christians and mirror him because that’s that’s the goal is to be more like, more like Jesus and become more like him. So what would that look like is to reflect him in his character. And there’s two main aspects, you know, so God’s justice, which I guess I would say is a reflection of his holiness. Like, you know, he’s perfect, he’s good, he hates wrong and wrongdoing. And so we want to reflect that. But another aspect of God’s character, I think, is his love. And what does that love mean and what does that love look like? And I’ve just realised, I’ve just been thinking that love in the word in the Bible is is always linked, is usually linked to action.
Inonge Siluka:
So John tells us that God loved us and then he tells us what that means, or what that looks like, because he died for us, that he demonstrated his love because while we were still sinners, Jesus died for us. It’s there’s always a link, an action to the you know you are loved because of as Christians in in the New Testament, I encourage to love one another. There’s practical application to what that love looks like. So it’s to love, to practice hospitality and so welcoming the stranger refugees or whoever and and people who might be different from us into our homes. That’s love in action. Galatians tells us to carry one another’s burdens, to weep with those who weep and mourn with those who mourn. And so if people are experiencing injustices, instead of being like, oh, I can’t relate to that, you just need to suck it up. It says to to weep with those who weep not to weep with those who weep. Only if we think that their weeping is worthy of our concern. I think, you know when we say we ought to love our neighbour as ourselves, and love God and love neighbour, that love bit looks like action.
Adam Curtis:
And like. Now to move our conversation on to a particular area of injustice, an area which I know your charity restored Hope Zambia deals with. And that’s the topic of church abuse and injustice within the church. And this is a difficult area to talk about, particularly as believers, and yet is incredibly important. And I’m very aware that for some of our our listeners who might be new Christians, their experience of the church might actually be wholly positive at this point. And maybe they haven’t heard of some of the injustices which have happened in the church, even though they are very much in the media, whether that be injustices in the Catholic Church or in the evangelical church here in the UK. But maybe could you just help outline for us what sort of abuses can happen within the church?
Inonge Siluka:
I think there’s different types of abuse. I’ll sort of just touch on like two main ones, because I think one of the types of abuse is present in all forms of abuse. Um, I think it’s important to define abuse as the mistreatment or harming of another person. I just say that because I think there’s a lot of conversations around people use the word church hurt where they’re referring to, you know, like some kind. Sometimes things happen in churches where, you know, there’s a there’s a woman that looks at you a funny way or whatever when you’ve got a certain outfit on and, you know, it’s a bit hurtful and, but, you know, we’re not talking about, I guess sometimes things that Christians say or do consciously or unconsciously, that, you know, might hurt us a little bit. The abuse is, you know, somebody has been harmed and hurt and mistreated as a result of the actions of another person, or again, systemically, because of a system in place and the main form of abuse, I think would be present, you know, wherever you are in the world would be spiritual abuse. And spiritual abuse is just basically the use of this sacred. So whether that’s the Bible, prayer, anything, you know, religious or Christian to manipulate usually or cause harm to another person, I just give an example of that. It might be manipulating someone to give all their money to you by saying, actually, God told me that you should sell your house and give it all to the church.
Inonge Siluka:
And so that is somebody using their position of authority or power that they have by virtue of being maybe in a position of leadership in the church to manipulate another person. There’s a harm caused there because obviously this person is, you know, they’re losing everything because they’ve trusted this person, and this person has told them to do a particular action. That’s just an example of financial abuse, which is an example of spiritual abuse. It could be sexual abuse. Again, that could range from different kinds of sexual abuse, but even depending on the denomination or the type of church that it is with some of the cases we deal with, with sort of Zambia. Somebody could just be saying, I want to pray for you, and I’m going to lay my hands on you. And then, you know, they’re touching another person inappropriately in ways that would be sexual assault. So the context is, is a spiritual setting, which creates an environment where it’s easy to maybe manipulate a situation or make the other person feel like there’s something wrong if they want to put boundaries in place. You know, you just don’t have enough faith. You’re not trusting God enough. It’s that level of manipulation at play. And there’s so many different examples of whatever kind of abuse you can think of, just adding the spiritual element, which creates the opportunity for the abuse, but causes the harm that I think hurts like the deeper wound.
Inonge Siluka:
When you have been abused in the context of a church and experienced that spiritual abuse or sexual abuse or financial abuse, the person or the people perpetuating the abuse would have been saying they were representing God in some way. And so if that person is a Christian, then that can impact their relationship with God because they associate Jesus or whatever to, to, you know, this horrible thing that happened and all this experience that made them feel so small or, you know, harmed them in that way. And so in addition to the trauma that somebody might experience from the abuse, broken Relationships, losing their community. They might have to leave a church and lose all their friends. You also have this, you know, actually your relationship with the church. Find it difficult to find a church or trust people in a church, and your relationship to God and spiritual things is affected. And so the impact of it, you know, can can be so devastating and so heartbreaking. And I think that’s what breaks my heart the most, I think because, you know, we’ve just talked about how amazing Jesus is and, and the hope that he gives. And yet it can become difficult for somebody who’s experienced that kind of abuse to run to the place where they ought to, because that has associations with, you know, the harm that they have experienced.
Adam Curtis:
It seems like there must be a lot of areas of complexity here. So I totally understand if you’ve gone up to prayer and then someone’s touching you inappropriately, probably in someone’s mind, in a very safe, vulnerable place, but they might be able to put it in their category of this is abuse. But what happens about those more complicated situations? Maybe someone’s trying to give financial advice. How does one actually spot in the complexities of a church environment that actually, this isn’t just someone giving me advice here or sharing God’s Word here, but this is actually abuse going on here.
Inonge Siluka:
I think there’s usually three things present or there’s more. Um, it’s very rarely one thing. Adam, I think that’s and you’re right, it is complicated and it’s you sometimes only spot it after seeing a pattern of behaviour over a period of time. I would say one helpful thing is not to be in an echo chamber, because sometimes you do stuff or, you know, I’ve been to churches where like weird stuff is going down and it’s just it’s not helpful, but it takes somebody outside that circle to be like, wait, what? You do what? Like, sometimes you just need the outsider. But if you’re all in this echo chamber and this is just normal and you’ve all been groomed into thinking this is normal, you might not pick up on red flags because, you know, you just trust everything is fine. So I would say engaging with people from different churches, different traditions, like even just outside of that bubble, just for perspective. And I think another thing is just boundaries. You know, church leaders, do you have authority that has been given to them by Jesus, delegated. But there’s a purpose to that authority. It’s to equip believers to love Jesus more, to grow in him. If somebody is giving advice or saying things, I think a helpful question is how is this helping me love Jesus more? How is this helping me grow God or his kingdom? Is this person centring Christ or are they centring themselves? And sometimes that one isn’t always the answer, because sometimes the use of spiritual language to manipulate into making you think is about Jesus, when it’s not really, I think just asking, can I say this is genuinely glorifying Jesus and making most of him or just, you know, this person, and I think there’s a manipulation at play, and people who are being spiritual, abusive, especially, would try and remove you away from community or family. So they’re very suspicious, you know, don’t trust your family where your family, you know, don’t just want to isolate you. And so I think just asking questions whenever people want to not only cross those boundaries but isolate you away from other communities.
Adam Curtis:
No, that’s really helpful. Really helpful. So I need to get out of the echo chamber. We need to create boundaries. We need to be asking good questions. So as a Christian, why do you think that injustice happens within the church?
Inonge Siluka:
This might seem like a super simplistic answer, but like sin, the effects of sin. So there’s so many ways in which we see the effects of the fall and sin in the world, in how people behave, how people act, and the things that people do. And I think the most obvious way is I see those sins in the church that create an environment where abuse can take places is greed. So there’s a lot of greed, you know, that could be greed for money, greed for fame. Usually when abuses, injustice happen in the church, they’ll say, no, we need to protect the church and they’ll make that about Jesus. When it’s not about Jesus, it’s about protecting reputation. And so there’s a law of selfishness with that regard. Somebody has been hurt. You don’t want to do something about the situation because it will look bad. So that’s that’s fear of man, as it were. Like, you don’t trust that Jesus will build his church. You think it’s up to you? I think just false teachers, you know, there’s something to be aware of when you’re a Christian. Not everybody who claims to be Christian, not everybody who says Jesus things, genuinely loves Jesus and has good intentions.
Inonge Siluka:
And the thing about them, as Jesus said, is that they don’t have a sign on their forehead saying false teacher warning. They look like legit thing. That’s why Jesus uses the expression they are wolves in sheep’s clothing. They look like sheep, but they are wolves. And Jesus tells us how to spot them and says we’ll know them by their fruit. Somebody could be saying the most amazing things. They could have the most charismatic personality. But if they’re acting dodge, Jesus says, you know them by their fruit, so that means they’re dodge. So you’re dodgy. I’m just saying, Jesus warns about these people and how to spot them. And Jesus wants Christians to be wary of that because Jesus cares about his church and he doesn’t want this stuff going on. And I think the last one, I think we just don’t fully grasp who Jesus is, especially when we want to cover up injustices in the name of Jesus. You know, we don’t want to talk about we don’t want to do this because it will harm the church. It’s like, yo, it’s Jesus’s church. Like, who do you think you are? Um, and just.
Inonge Siluka:
You know, just thinking of Jesus’s character, right? If we think about who Jesus is. Jesus is truth. Doesn’t just tell truth. He is truth. So why would we be covering up truth when we follow the one who is truth? He is the light of the world. Why would we be trying to cover up stuff when he says he’s going to bring it to the light? And so we don’t fully grasp the magnitude of who Jesus is and the fact that it’s his church. And so we try and act in ways that are just so inconsistent with what Jesus is about. I think it’s it’s about unbelief and trust in the character and the sovereignty of Jesus over his church.
Adam Curtis:
In the light of all this abuse, how can you still keep going as a Christian?
Inonge Siluka:
Jesus.
Inonge Siluka:
I genuinely I always say I couldn’t do this work if I wasn’t a Christian. It’s too depressing. I think knowing that it’s not a man made thing. It sometimes feels like it is because, you know, the church can just look like just people doing things badly all the time. But the fact that it’s Jesus who created the church and seeing how Jesus responds to injustices in the church in the Bible gives me hope that he’s not indifferent to what’s going on. I’m taken to a passage in Revelation where Jesus is writing to churches and there’s a church. I think it’s a church in Ephesus. And Jesus says to this church, so this church is doing good stuff. They’re not tolerating false teaching. They’re they’re holding steadfast even when things are tough. And Jesus commends them and he says, you’re doing great. But this I have against you. You have lost the love you have at first. This church is loveless. It’s not doing things. It’s not loving people as it ought to. And even though they’re doing some things right, Jesus actually threatens to shut down this church. That’s the seriousness with which Jesus takes the treatment of his people. And so for me, that’s a comfort. Oh my goodness. If it’s going to shut down the church, that is like totally not tolerating false teachers and is persevering in the face of suffering because they lack the love that Jesus is about. He means business. I cling on to that, that Jesus will do something about these injustices. It might not come in the timeline that I would like, and that’s the ongoing struggle that I will always, I think, always have in this life.
Inonge Siluka:
But I trust in what he will do and the promises he has given. So there’s that future hope that I think I cling to. And then just the lament, like in terms of in the meantime, what do you do? The lament that, you know, the Psalms where the psalmist is looking at evil and saying, how long, Lord, when will you do something about this? The fact that that’s in the Bible and the Bible gives us space to lament. I find myself lamenting a lot more, and I’m grateful that the Bible gives that. Like I said, I wouldn’t do it if I wasn’t a Christian, because outside of the Christian worldview, you don’t have a space to properly lament. Yeah, you can rant and go and and voice your frustrations, but they go nowhere. It’s just a cry into the void. The lament in the Bible you’re crying out to Heavenly Father who sees and who cares. And just in a practical way, I think just finding the joys of the beauty of Jesus and intentionally trying to put those things in my life. Because when you’re looking at evil and injustice all the time, it can be easy to be consumed by those things. But actually, there’s other good things that are happening and experiencing the simple joys of life that God has given and and listening to other people’s stories and the joys and the ways in which God is working in their lives. I’ll deliberately do things that are not related to justice, and the frustrations that I can experience and just try and get out there and see what else God is doing, just for perspective.
Adam Curtis:
Oh, that is really helpful, especially thinking about the fact that actually God gives us the words to lament in the Psalms. In Lamentations, he’s not surprised that this is the state of the world and that things are hard. He actually gives us the very words to say in the midst of this pain. But I’m also very aware that he also wants us to say particular words to help those people who have suffered and have been abused. And so when you find yourself speaking to a victim of an abusive church leader, what hope do you offer them?
Inonge Siluka:
I think my heart for them is is for them to see themselves, how Jesus sees them. The hope I want them to point to is Jesus who sees because sometimes it feels like, does anyone see it? Does anybody care? Jesus does. He has been through it. He has been alienated. He has been abused. He has been betrayed. He has experienced all those emotions. So he actually gets it. I might not get it. I might not have experienced the things that you have in the way you have. But you know, Jesus fully understands. So he sees, he gets it. He cares and he weeps with you. And just that kind of like, you know, here’s Jesus gets alongside you is probably what I would want to emphasise. And then just what does Jesus say about you? You know, your abuser may have told you you don’t matter. People around you may have said, you know, you’re not valuable because you didn’t do things a certain way, but Jesus has a whole different perspective. You know, he says, come to me, those who are weary and heavy burdened, and I will give you rest. So it’s that rest that Jesus promises my favourite or second favourite, or at least one of my favourite verses in the Bible from revelation. The promise that Jesus then offers for somebody who is suffering that trauma and they’re thinking, I’m just tired of wrestling with this. God himself will wipe away every tear from our eyes and there’ll be no death, no suffering, no pain. There’ll be no trauma in the new creation in the world that Jesus makes. And so it won’t always be this way.
Leah Sax:
Are you so clearly have a heart for loving people. And you have a heart for walking through life with people who’ve suffered? What if you’re a person who’s listening at home? And if we’re talking about in this particular question, the bigger picture of injustice, but they’re kind of, oh, it’s really nice that she cares. But that’s that’s kind of not my problem. That’s not what I see or that’s not my calling to do that. How can we tune our hearts to to care? Should we be caring more deeply about this?
Inonge Siluka:
I’m just cautious of kind of saying, you know, everybody needs to have the equal heart for because there’s so many needs in the world and so much suffering and so much pain in different ways, that I think sometimes God gives us a certain level of grace to deal with certain situations. So. So I would be cautious of guilt tripping people into like, you all need to now join in on this cause otherwise you’re not. You know you don’t love Jesus. I wouldn’t want to say that, but I do think if you find yourself in a place where you’re indifferent to the suffering o f others, indifferent to the injustices around you, And I always say start at home. So the reason I’m doing restored Hope Zambia is because I’m a Christian. This is abuse in the church that’s home and Zambia is home. So where are you? What’s going on around you? And if you’re indifferent to that, I think it’s something that you can ask the Holy Spirit to convict you of, because I think Christians are called to be people of love. And so if we are loveless and indifferent, that’s a Holy Spirit thing I don’t think you can conjure up and just be like, alright, starting tomorrow, we’re gonna I think it’s a heart change that’s needed. And even for me personally, I’ve seen God at work in my life from the person I was even like ten years ago. To the person I am now, I think God has changed my heart and given me a disposition to different things at different times. I think he’s capable of doing that. And so if you’re thinking, I see a lot of stuff, but I’m just not moved by it, I think we can ask God to help us also, to help us see opportunities, to then step into those opportunities to serve and love others.
Leah Sax:
And what if, on the other end of the spectrum, people are overwhelmed by what they could do any practical wisdom on how believers can be a force for good in this broken world?
Inonge Siluka:
I think that’s a thing. The fatigue, suffering, fatigue of just being too aware. Honestly, sometimes it’s helpful just to switch off. Get off social media for a bit and go touch grass. Switch off the telly. I think two helpful things to remember. God calls us to care about the suffering of others and injustices. But he doesn’t call us to be gods. We’re not many gods, so we cannot be in all these places at the same time. I don’t think we’re created to, you know, know as much as we know. Sometimes I think if we feel overwhelmed, I think that’s partly because that’s being human. I don’t think we are created to replicate God in being able to do everything about everything. And I think for somebody who’s overwhelmed, I would say, just remember, you’re doing what you can with your God limited resources, but ultimately you’re not the one fixing everything because you’re not God. I’m always like, come back to Jesus, pour your heart to him. Remember he’s King. Pour your heart and your burdens to him.
Leah Sax:
Where would be helpful for us to go and look for some resources. Maybe if we’re walking with people who have suffered injustice or we are part of something at the moment ourselves, two.
Inonge Siluka:
Organisations that have helpful resources on, you know, injustices in the church and abuse. And one organisation is called Grace. It’s a very long acronym. So it stands for Godly Response to Abuse in the Church environment. But if you just Google grace and then abuse or injustice in church, it will show up. Another one is more maybe UK based called church as a refuge has really, really helpful resources, especially around how we create healthy church cultures. Really, really good stuff on there. You can check out the restored Hope Zambia website. It is tailored more towards African contexts, so that’s a helpful perspective as well, just to understand different cultures and how that might manifest there. And there’s a couple of resources I’m hoping to share a few more on overflow chat just around justice in general, and some of the apathy that we can have to to injustice in in some of our circles. And just to help you think through things.
Leah Sax:
Those four points that Inonge started with, that he cares about injustice. God responds to injustice. He’s done something about injustice. And there’s a promise of future hope, of a land of justice. Yes. Was just such this beautiful base from which to grow a beautiful hope in this so tricky topic.
Adam Curtis:
Yeah, that that word you just finished on there of hope. That was the thing which really struck me, was actually we came back to the hope of heaven again and again and again and actually in a really rich, deep sort of sense that that the hope of heaven is also that hope of justice for those who have victims, that their tears are going to be wiped on their faces by God himself, that actually those who have done these great wicked deeds will actually meet their maker and have to answer for their for their crimes. That’s a rich, deep sense of hope in a really horrible situation and topic.
Leah Sax:
And now it’s time for our season six. I still can’t believe it’s season six bonus question. And our question this season is what are you currently most thankful for?
Inonge Siluka:
The sun. It’s shown up. I live in Scotland, so listen, this is.
Inonge Siluka:
Like it’s a big moment. It’s a big moment.
Inonge Siluka:
Like it showed up. It’s light at 9 p.m. and I’m a whole new person. I have a different personality basically.
Leah Sax:
Thank you so much for being our guest on Delight Podcast today. Next week we will be joined by Femi Kalejaiye and we will be looking at what the Bible has to say on Heaven and hell. Until then, it’s Adam and Leah delightfully signing off.
Adam Curtis:
Bye bye bye.
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