TRANSCRIPT Episode 27: Eternity – heaven, hell & the new creation

Leah Sax:
Hello and welcome to episode 27 of Delight Podcast. I’m Leah Sax

Adam Curtis:
Hello and I’m Adam Curtis and season six has been a heavy one. We’ve started with started with God’s will. Then we moved into justice. And now we’re moving on to the topic of eternity. And we didn’t do this intentionally Leah, but I do feel like it’s us sort of like, laying it down. Like we’re serious people and we can do serious topics.

Leah Sax:
It’s actually true, Adam. We can be serious. It’s quite interesting because we actually record the episode first and then we record the introduction afterwards. So we’ve just been sat for the last 90 minutes with our amazing guest, and we’re both like, whoa, this topic is so deep and important. And then we’re like, and now we have to record our hello and welcome to Delight Podcast moment. So we’re both a bit shocked, but in a good way. So we really pray that this episode today is useful. Our guest today is actually a friend of mine. Yay!

Adam Curtis:
Yay!

Leah Sax:
Yay! That was a terrible yay! Adam, um, just because you’re jealous because I now have friends, uh, is, uh, Femi Kalejaiye. He is the evangelism lead at Christ Church, Mayfair. And actually, he has been gracious enough to share his time with us today as we’re looking at the topic of eternity. So heaven, hell and the new creation.

Leah Sax:
Femi, welcome to Delight Podcast.

Femi Kalejaiye:
Oh, thank you so much Leah. It’s great to be on.

Leah Sax:
I’m very excited to have you the first friend this series I have from my circle. And not Adam.

Adam Curtis:
It’s good to know that Leah actually has a friend.

Leah Sax:
Oh.

Femi Kalejaiye:
She has lots of friends. Adam at Christ Church, Mayfair and beyond.

Leah Sax:
Oh, you’re very kind, brother. Let’s start. What do you do, Femi? Tell the audience how we know each other and what you’re up to in life at the moment.

Femi Kalejaiye:
Yes, yes, yes. So over the last year I’ve actually transitioned to join Christ Church Mayfair staff. So I’m currently the evangelism lead there and I’m at Bible college two days a week at Oak Hill, and the hope is that by the end of that journey, I will be an ordained minister. But before that, I was working as a commercial partnership manager for a Start-Up in London. That’s what I’ve been up to.

Leah Sax:
Could you tell us a little bit about your journey to faith?

Femi Kalejaiye:
It all began when I was really young, actually. So my family are Nigerian, and I would say that our faith growing up was more superstitious than Spiritual. That meant that our reference for praying to God was, we have this higher deity that we look up to who can protect us from life, who can make life financially stable. My mum was a single parent, so for her that sense of shelter and safety was very key. That meant that repentance wasn’t really discussed in our household. So even when I would listen to sermons when I was younger, repentance and trust in Jesus wasn’t the main topic. And that just meant my reference point for God was other than what he wanted the reference point to be. And the turning point for me was when I went to Exeter University within the first two weeks, I got the sad news that my mum had died unexpectedly and that was just like someone pulling the rug from underneath my feet. It just really felt destabilising. And in that week, I turned to the Lord like I hadn’t turned to him before. I remember opening my Bible and the scripture that I landed on in God’s providence was Psalm 68. God is a father to the fatherless, a defender of widows.

Femi Kalejaiye:
He sets the lonely in families. And as soon as I saw that, I was just stunned. It felt like God had interrupted my world to let me know that he did exist, and by God’s grace was able to return to Exeter after sorting out a lot of admin, but was really fortunate to encounter some Christians on campus and also hear sermons from local churches. And they just totally expounded the fact that we’re saved by grace through faith, not by works. And it was 19 when my heart was melted by the love of God. I just understood, finally, that the reference point, the reason why Jesus was on that cross 2000 years ago was because he was dying. The death that I deserved for my sin, and I just never knew that growing up. But 19. It clicked and I was in my bedroom when it clicked. I just walked home from listening to a sermon after finishing study on campus, and I was just singing. Majesty. Majesty, your Grace has found me just as I am. Empty handed but alive in your hands. Yeah. Now I was saved, I was saved, that was how I came to know the Lord.

Leah Sax:
Firstly, what a beautiful story of God’s faithfulness and him coming to you in a time of such deep brokenness and showing you what that healing means. How has God been interrupting your life in the years since?

Femi Kalejaiye:
Oh, in so many ways, I think. First of all, I felt an unusual draw to preaching shortly after becoming a Christian. So if you asked me what I wanted to be when I was younger, it was definitely a rich lawyer so that I could pay my way out of financial instability and insecurity. But I had this undying passion to give people the experience of hearing the gospel that I didn’t have when I was young, so I’d find myself in conversations with either young Christians on campus, or people who weren’t Christians, who had no idea that Jesus came to atone for their sins. Yes. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but shall have eternal life. But John 3:17 For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save it. You know, that’s his heart to save it. And so I just felt myself wanting to tell people this good news and have conversations. I guess the first interruption of my life was after graduating. I was a student minister at my local church as well as an operations pastor, but that was just a phenomenal way for me to have early experience preaching and serving. Second interruption was after a couple of years, I decided to do it by vocationally so that I could just see what the real, real world looks like and started working in venture capital. Fortunately, the company I worked for was headquartered in Exeter, but that is part of a long story. Eventually brought me up to London, which has been a, I guess, a journey where I’ve just seen the Lord be a faithful shepherd. And in every season, make sure that I’m by green pastures, feeding me, nourishing me, but also teaching me the bigger vision of life to nourish his sheep.

Leah Sax:
When we were sound checking earlier, Femi, I was like talk. He just immediately, without any thought or hesitation, started reciting Psalm 23 so this sheep, this nourishment and this good pasture has been a theme of the morning. What do you find has nourished your soul most in those years?

Femi Kalejaiye:
I have to say, a deep ingesting of Scripture. I remember during that season when my mom passed away, the Word of God kept me sane. So many different places I could have run to during that time. I could have run to alcohol or drugs or all kinds of ways to care for my own soul. But the Lord just led me back to these scriptures that showed me he was my ever present father, even in the season, post becoming a Christian, but serving my church and then eventually working in venture capital, I honestly have to say that the Bible is what’s given me wisdom. As a young person who didn’t have a father growing up but then sadly lost his mother. It’s given me a centred vision of life to make sure that I’m not self-centred myself, but want to serve other people. And there are lots of stories, like really deep illustrations of how Scripture has helped me so much. I could give you some, but I don’t want to waffle.

Leah Sax:
Go on Femi, give us an example.

Femi Kalejaiye:
In lockdown, the company I was working for had furloughed about a third of its staff. A third or two thirds I can’t remember, but it was. It was a lot of our staff and I was part of the remainder who was kept on working, and it meant that my team didn’t have necessarily less workload. It was the same workload, so we had to work long hours to help to meet the demands of the business. And I remember my work schedule ended up being like 8 a.m., starts to 10 p.m. finishes for the duration of lockdown. I remember coming across Isaiah, I want to say 11, but it might not be. It might be eight or something like that. But it says the Lord keeps those whose minds are stayed upon him. I tell you, there were times in lockdown where my brain was too frazzled to work its way through a book like Romans or Corinthians. But Proverbs, for example, and Psalms were so digestible, and those were the things that just helped me wake up with a clear vision of how to worship the Lord of my days.

Leah Sax:
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Adam Curtis:
Our culture is obsessed with the now, the here, living in the moment. It’s all about seizing the day and not letting the opportunities pass you by. You only have 82 years of life, so make the most of it. In comparison, heaven sounds slow, dull, boring, and also a little bit exhausting. The idea of going on and on and on isn’t that appealing. The idea of more of this life, with its aches and pains and sorrow and tears. Sounds terrible. Floating on a cloud with the angels sounds only a little bit better for me. Why would we want to live for eternity?

Femi Kalejaiye:
Because that’s where God is. Is the simple answer to the question, I think to unpack that a bit more. One of my favourite scriptures in that season of getting to know the Lord more. That just flipped the script for me in terms of dry religion versus, you know, living faith that Jesus calls us into is the Psalms, where David says, in the presence of God there is fullness of joy at your right hand. There are pleasures forevermore. And I was like, you know, Lord, help me to see what David saw. Because if I saw what David saw, then I would live like David lived. One of the reasons why we think eternity might be boring is because we don’t realise that all of the pleasures we enjoy in this life, the one who created the molecular structures that even underpin those experiences and those sites, is the person we’re going to hang out with for all eternity. Like there’s no depth that you will ever exhaust to God. He’s inexhaustible. People who enjoy fine dining food, the one who invented all of those flavours. You’re going to get to cook up even better flavours in eternity. People who enjoy extravagant music, the one who underpins all of the symphonies that we’ve grown to love. There is music in heaven and even instruments to be created that we haven’t even known existed. Sounds to be enjoyed. I sometimes wonder, why do the four living creatures who surround the throne need so many eyes around their body? I wonder? The Bible doesn’t tell us this, but I wonder if they have so many eyes because there is just so much of God to look at that they have to have eyes and they rotate around, and once one side of their eyes is exhausted or had a glimpse of God’s majesty, the other side of their eyes has to have another glimpse.

Femi Kalejaiye:
And it’s just inexhaustible. But I think Adam as well. There’s another side to this, which is those who suffer much in this life can’t wait for heaven. There’s a sense in which the sufferings of this life teach us that heaven is our true home, and we long for perfect justice. We long for a place with no more pain, no more suffering. And so sometimes I think people can’t fathom heaven because, you know, God in his providence hasn’t allowed them to suffer as much as other people who have gone through the muck and mire of this world and realise, no, no, my soul needs something to give a sweet end to this bitter story. You know, Adam, sometimes when I’m feeling the limitations of this earthly body, I realise all that God has done for us on the cross. I realised that he saved us through the shedding of his son’s blood. And there are days when I want to thank him from the bottom of my of my heart, and I struggle sometimes. I really struggle to give him that praise, and I long for the day where I’m given a new body that has the capacity to express just how grateful I am. You know I want to be a songwriter. I want to be a melody creator. I want to offer God something that’s so extravagant. But I recognise that my current earthly body is limited. And so part of my longing for heaven is God. I can’t wait to praise you like you truly deserve to be praised.

Adam Curtis:
Some people though Femi might be hearing what you’re saying about how glorious heaven’s going to be, and they might push back and say, well, we’re just an animal at the end of the day. And animals, they come and they go and and they die and they’re no more. Why is it that humans have the potential to live forever, to live for eternity?

Femi Kalejaiye:
It’s helpful that you. Say that because we’re actually doing a series at church at the moment in Genesis, all on the image of God. And that’s the distinguishing factor between us human beings and other creatures. Creatures have value. They’re an expression of God’s design and creation. But there was one creature that God said, I’m going to vest my image in them, and they’re going to rule and reign on earth and care for Earth, but also multiply and be fruitful. I think that’s the start of the story. I think the second half is God’s end goal, which is Romans eight tells us that Jesus is to be the firstborn among many brothers. And you see this vision in God’s heart that when he created earth, what he always intended was for there to be people who would be his perfect image bearers to care and tend for the earth, but also those who would worship his son and love him with all of their heart, all of their mind, all of their soul. We don’t have the capacity to do it fully now, but we will when he gives us new bodies. So there’s a richer picture of praise and outworking God’s vision for creation here on earth that only humans can do.

Adam Curtis:
You spoke a few times now, Femi, about us having new bodies and how glorious that’s going to be. I wonder if a new Christian might hear in church people talking about heaven, but also people talking about a new creation, this place where we’re going to gain these new bodies. I wonder if it might be quite helpful for us to create a distinction. Can you tell us what’s the difference between heaven and the new creation?

Femi Kalejaiye:
So heaven is temporary. The new creation is what will be eternal. So in the scriptures you see that when people die right now, Luke 16, for example, gives a parable of the rich man and Lazarus. It describes a place where unbelievers go right now called Hades, and believers go to Paradise, also known as heaven. But the end goal is described in Revelation 21, which is a new heavens and new earth, which is where the two worlds collide. God’s dwelling place right now is heaven. The dwelling place of mankind right now is earth. The dream of God is for these two places to collide once again. There have been foreshadowings in the Bible which have been so riveting. We sometimes think the Old Testament is boring. But hey, look, first of all, when God gives the Israelites the vision of his temple in Exodus all the way through to Leviticus, Deuteronomy, that is God saying, I want to come and break into earth again. When I cast Adam out of the garden, that wasn’t the intended plan for humanity. I’ve always wanted to coexist, and to have human beings see me in all of my splendour, in the same physical location.

Femi Kalejaiye:
We can’t do it because of our sin. And so the whole point of the tabernacle in the Old Testament was to be this place that had the parameters of holiness, that God in his grace would come and dwell with his people. But then you trace that through to Christ coming again. And John one says that the word became flesh and made its dwelling among us. And that word dwelling is the same word in the Greek as the word tabernacled. God tabernacled amongst us. The whole plan of Jesus was to be God again amongst us, dwelling but with a purpose to be able to bleed for us and to live a sinless life that we couldn’t live, so that ultimately we could be redeemed by trusting in him so that we could then enjoy Revelation 21, which is the end goal, which is God will be our God. We will be his people, and we will dwell with him, and there will be no more barrier of sin that separates us. So that’s that’s the that’s the great dream that we’re looking forward to.

Adam Curtis:
Oh, what a dream it is. I love that imagery. The dream of God is heaven and earth colliding. Tell me more about this new creation, Femi.

Femi Kalejaiye:
First of all, God says that he’s going to cast out all causes of sin and suffering. When we think about it, every point of bitterness we’ve ever experienced in this life and in this world has been because of someone’s sin. So natural disasters happen because of the sin of Adam, for example, but also the sin of rejection, the sin of hostility that we feel amongst other people. Every relationship breakdown we’ve ever experienced, every workplace fracture we’ve ever gone through. It’s been because of our sin or the sin of someone else towards us. God says that in this new creation, there’s going to be no more sin, and all causes of sin will be cast out. And we’re going to be able to therefore enjoy a place with no more pain or suffering. And he says that every tear will be wiped away. So we look forward to that day. It’s also a time of consolation. So there’s something about being redeemed and enjoying the splendour of God for all eternity that the Bible says has the power to right many personal wrongs. This word vindication comes up often in the Psalms, but it’s ultimately talking about Christ when he was risen again from the dead. That was his consolation and his vindication, that every word he said was true. Christ wasn’t a liar when he said that he was the Messiah, but likewise, those who trust in him, our loyalty is going to be rewarded.

Femi Kalejaiye:
If we have acknowledged Jesus here on earth, he will acknowledge us. And so it’s a time of deep and profound consolation for all of us who suffer in some way for bearing the name of Jesus on us. One of the things I enjoyed from our associate vicar’s sermon on hell last year, we decided to have a weekend away that was focussed on heaven and hell together was, he says. Imagine trying to describe a jumbo jet to someone who lived in the Bronze Age. Um, how would you do that? You know, in the Bronze Age there was no concept of even electricity. These structures that we’ve come to know, these laws of physics that we now understand, how would you describe it? But when you read the Bible, it’s trying to give you a sneak peek into this glorious new world that you right now don’t even have the full capacity to understand. There’s so much in Scripture to help us just get a glimpse, get a glimpse of the new heavens and new earth, and we’re encouraged to read it. You know, Isaiah 66, 65, 11. Revelation 21,22. Filled with so much to help us start to get our minds around what that day is going to be like.

Adam Curtis:
Femi, this vision you’ve cast for us of the new creation that is glorious and splendid. How can someone actually get there?

Femi Kalejaiye:
Amen. By trusting in Jesus. By believing that he is the way, the truth, and the life, and by receiving him. Crucially, crucially, crucially, by grace through faith, not by works. And this is the key thing, right? I mean, we sometimes think if God is so holy and pure, well, how can I, by merit, enter his presence? And some of us fall into ruts of thinking, well, if I make a vow that God, I’ll never do this again in my life, or I promise to always do this forever, whatever it may be. We sometimes think that God will somehow delight in those works, and then, on the basis of those works, accept us into the new heavens and new earth. But that’s totally not the vision that he paints. It’s interesting, he says to the Israelites, by our standards, you know, try to follow 613 commandments failed at a lot of them, but nevertheless tried to follow a total of 613 commandments to try and prove their righteousness. But he’s still God has the purity to tell them in Isaiah 64 that your righteousness is like filthy rags before me.

Femi Kalejaiye:
Even our best efforts to be holy before God still fall so far short of his standards. And I think in a culture that currently has its own methods of virtue signalling, whether it be issues of justice or climate change or whatever, you know, really good issues that are important to take to heart, there is nothing we could ever do in and of ourselves to attain to perfection that’s required to have heaven. And so God in his mercy says, look, I will be perfection on your behalf. This Christ who walked upon the earth 2000 years ago, he really was the perfect man. And as long as we’re in him, as long as we receive everything that he did for us by faith, by trust, then his heaven is ours. Repentance is the gateway in when we come to Christ. He sets a new standard for our lives, and he shows us just how far short we’ve fallen of his glory. The Gateway in is repentance for me to apologise to God and admit that I’m. I’m a sinner in need of grace and forgiveness.

Adam Curtis:
Oh, that’s so helpful there for me just to highlight these truths, for that to be true. That on the cross Jesus has taken the judgement which we deserve, and we have access to that forgiveness when we believe in him. Then it is also then true that those who do not believe in him do not have access to that forgiveness, and they face that judgement instead. Now, this is a very sombre and and real and heavy part of the podcast. Can we now turn our attention to hell for those who aren’t accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour? The Scripture says that they will face God’s judgement. What does the Bible tell us about hell?

Femi Kalejaiye:
We’re all going to come face to face with this question, whether we have loved ones who aren’t believers, but also to appreciate the preciousness of our own salvation, we have to know the depth of what we’ve been saved from. For example, you have Matthew 13, where repeatedly Jesus says that it’s a place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. He uses the imagery of fire. But I think within all this, what we have to remember is that the Bible says that hell is where God’s perfect justice will be executed again. All causes of sin the pain, the muck, the mire that has ruined our world has to be cast crossed out. And the home for that place, the Bible says, is away from God’s goodness, away from his gifts, and into a place of perfect punishment and justice. A gripping picture that we see in the Bible, I think, is Revelation 14, where it says that the smoke of their torment will never cease. It goes up forever and ever. Sometimes we we wrestle and we think, is that disproportionate? You know, for someone to be punished forever for sin here on earth is sin that bad? But there are a few things we see in Scripture that show us, yes, sin is that bad. I think chiefly the fact that Jesus had to die such a gruesome death. If Jesus was really coming to atone for our sin, to pay the price that we deserved, if we trust in him, what does it show us about how gruesome the sin is? That he was crucified on a wooden cross Nails pierced through his hands, a spear driven through his side.

Femi Kalejaiye:
Before that he endured such mockery where a crown of thorns was put on his head. And he was beat from pillar to post, lashed with whips before Pontious Pilate. But even that wasn’t the extent of his torment. The agony that he was about to experience was being cast out of the father’s presence. The father conducting the spiritual torment of hell on the cross upon Jesus, his Son. And so Jesus then is able to say, it is finished. But why is he saying it is finished? It’s because before that he says that he went to drink the cup, the cup of God’s wrath that was due sinners, and he drank it down to its very end for us. So to see the extent of Jesus’s suffering on the cross shows us just how God feels about sin, but also just how much he feels about us, that he would count us significant enough to send His Son into the world to suffer that torment on our behalf if we trust in him. I think what we see in the Bible is a call for us to think deeply about the danger of sin, the consequences of sin, and to not fall into the drunkenness that just kind of wants to put it under the carpet somewhere. No, no, bring sin out into the light and consider it for its full abhorrence, its full shame, its ugliness, and see what God was willing to do with it on the cross and repent and turn to him.

Adam Curtis:
Femi, people are going to push back against that and say, But God is good and God is loving and God is kind. Why would a good God allow people to go to hell?

Femi Kalejaiye:
It comes again to this vision of perfect restoration. You know, every ounce of injustice that we’ve ever experienced here on Earth, every ounce of pain or suffering has been due to someone’s sin. And so for God to create a place where he can confidently say, there’s no more pain, no more suffering, he has to remove the causes of sin. I think one of the comforting things that we see in Revelation 20, it’s actually an extension of what Jesus said in Matthew 25. He says in Matthew 25 that hell was prepared chiefly for the devil and demons. He says, just after the parable of the goats and the sheep in Matthew 25. And so in Revelation 20, who do you see chiefly being cast into hell? The Bible says Hades. So the place where the dead currently are, who don’t trust in Christ and death itself are thrown into this lake of fire. But also the devil and demons are thrown into this lake of fire, and then anyone else who takes part in their rebellion. So you’ve got to see that this isn’t some kind of vendetta against specific people, but it’s a vendetta against chiefly what has corrupted God’s creation, which is sin and rebellion. And so I would say to anyone who wrestles with the goodness of God in creating hell, I would say, first of all, it is a good thing. It is a good thing for God to cast out all causes of pain and suffering here on this earth.

Femi Kalejaiye:
And I would say, secondly, follow the logic to its full conclusion. In the land right now, we know logically we would never uphold a judge who claimed to be just and let criminals go free. We’ve seen many cases, even in recent years, where people have been sentenced for high profile crimes, and we think the sentence is too lenient. You know, someone takes someone else’s life maliciously, intently and only gets sentenced to 15 or 20 years in prison. Sometimes we think that can’t be. Use that same logic to think about hell. I think another way to tie this up logically is to think if I was to spit on someone else’s face in society, what would the punishment be? Legally, there’s a case against me for some kind of assault by the law of the land. But I’m not getting 25 years in prison for doing that. If I was to spit upon a politician, what might the result be? Several news articles that can help you see what the result would be. Spit upon the face of King Charles. What would the result be? Something much, much more severe. But then spit upon the creator of the universe. What kind of punishment do you think that deserves? And sometimes we just don’t see how much it is an offence to tell even a white lie, because it’s a fracture of the just rule of our loving God.

Adam Curtis:
At this point, someone might be very struck and be thinking in their head, in their heart, well, I love one of mine has died. Who isn’t a believer? Are they? Are they lost? What’s happened to them?

Femi Kalejaiye:
Hmm. And I think with this question you have to first of all hold with a sincere heart that God does justly and rightly. One of the striking things in revelation 14 is it says those who are punished, they’re punished before the presence of the lamb and his angels. And so the person who mediates hell isn’t the devil. The devil is the one actually being punished in hell along with other sinners. The one who mediates hell is the Son of God Himself, who endured hell on the cross. So sometimes we can’t bear with the thought of hell because we can’t bear the thought of someone else executing justice. But when we know that the one executing justice was pierced himself, our hearts are more open to respond to that. The truth of the Bible is that whoever believes in the son has eternal life, but whoever does not believe in the son does not have life, because the wrath of God still remains on them. Somehow. God, over time helps us to see that if someone hasn’t trusted in Jesus, no, they won’t be in heaven. And somehow he helps us to see that. That is just now. What we’ve got to add here is we don’t know how everyone lives to the last day of their life. Sometimes we do, but a lot of the times we don’t. Just as the thief on the cross was able to repent with his dying breath, we don’t know how other people experienced their last moments. What we’ve got to do in this life is to surrender the final judgement to the Lord and right now live in response to this reality, this sobering reality of both God’s kindness and his severity.

Adam Curtis:
Yeah, when I think about this question, I like to rest, actually, I have to rest in the justice of God and knowing actually God will do what is right and what is good, no matter who the person is. And actually, that’s the only way I can get through it. Someone might be listening Femi who might be thinking, I don’t want to be separated from the Lord. I don’t want to have to face his righteous anger. I’ve put my faith in Jesus Christ. Is that enough? Can I actually be confident that just through faith alone, that I’m going to be with Jesus in the new creation? What assurance does a believer have?

Femi Kalejaiye:
A changed heart and a changed life is where our assurance ultimately gets strengthened. So again, we’re saved by grace through faith, not by works at all. But the Bible is clear that the evidence of that faith is a changed lifestyle. Works. One of my favourite scriptures actually on this is 1 John chapter 3 that says those who have this hope in him purify themselves as he is pure. And what that’s saying is, when the earth shattering reality of you trusting in Jesus happens, and your heart is set on dwelling in him for all eternity, the new direction of your life is living one of purity that imitates his purity. The best analogy that ties this up is how are you currently preparing for heaven? Adam, if you were to describe how you’re preparing for heaven and I could give you two choices, would you say it’s like you preparing for a job interview where you’re not sure about the outcome, but you’re working as hard in order to earn the approval of your future employer? Or is it more like a wedding where you are sure that on that day, you and your bride are going to exchange vows and commit to one another? But because you know that there is going to be a special day, you start to prepare. You start to floss your teeth more often. You go out and buy a suit. Maybe you hit the gym. I don’t know what your preparation would be like, but you start to get ready because you know that if you rocked up to your wedding day in shorts and a t shirt, that wouldn’t be the fitting way to mark the day. Which of those is your perspective right now? Genuine question.

Adam Curtis:
Oh, this doesn’t normally happen. I’m the one asking the questions here. Amen know immediately I get that, yes, if we’re preparing for the wedding day, I know that I’m going to get married. I’m working, but I’m working with.

Leah Sax:
Incredible. You haven’t answered Femi’s question. He asked you a direct question. Do you feel like the job interview or the wedding day?

Adam Curtis:
The wedding day? That’s what I said!

Leah Sax:
No, no, you were, like, being like. Let’s ask a polite question back by summarising. The thing I wanted to know was like, how are you feeling? Are you Flossing?

Femi Kalejaiye:
Yeah, but that’s the perspective that the Bible gives. If you are genuinely invested in seeing Jesus again, you know that because he is holy. The Bible says that the father dwells in unapproachable light. You also want to imitate that holiness, because that is the fitting garment for that day. And so we won’t be sinlessly perfect as we approach heaven. But 1 John 3 does describe us having a new trajectory, which is one of putting sin to death in our lives and picking up the ways of righteousness imperfectly, but stumbling forward. And I would say, for those who have experienced salvation, the evidence is there are things you enjoy doing now that you used to hate doing, like praying, like reading the Bible. There are things that you used to love doing that you now hate, whether that be smoking cigarettes or watching certain types of movies. I don’t know, whatever it might be for you. It’s different for everyone else, but you used to love the ways of unrighteousness and now you hate them.

Adam Curtis:
Someone else might be listening to this and they might be thinking to themselves, but what about purgatory? Or what about rebirth? Are those a thing? Can we just be reborn? Have a chance to do it slightly better?

Femi Kalejaiye:
No, no, it’s not a thing. Sometimes people cling on to that doctrine because, as you say, they kind of want to live a life that doesn’t acknowledge eternity now and then have some kind of second shot later on. An interesting view you get from revelation 9 and 16 is this picture of people being tormented by God as part of a just punishment, and yet they still refuse to repent. It’s a fascinating chapter to read chapter 9 and 16 in revelation. Go and check it out. These people are still cursing God and still worshipping idols, even though he’s raining down plagues from heaven. And I’m just shocked because they simply don’t love God. They don’t want God. And you know, hell is a place where people get what they want. They have not wanted God in this life. And God says, fine, don’t have me for all eternity. And so with purgatory, if someone’s heart hasn’t been transformed now in this life, the Bible says there is no second window for that to kind of happen. If it’s going to happen, it’s going to happen now. So it’s sobering. It’s sobering for us.

Adam Curtis:
Oh, it’s incredibly sobering. And in reality, both of these truths are very sobering. The truth of the new creation, the dream of God, heaven and earth colliding, and the truth of God’s judgement are both very sobering truths. And they do impact how we live. How do we live wisely in the light of eternity? How does it impact our sanctification?

Femi Kalejaiye:
Chiefly, we listen to Jesus here in this life, and we do what he says. I find the simplicity of Jesus’s teachings very helpful for this question, because sometimes we think, oh, what is the magic formula to live a life that pleases God? Sometimes we fall into the trap of analysis paralysis when Jesus is very clear and direct. He says, who is the wise man who built his house on a solid foundation? That the winds and the storm crashed against the house. It did not fall. It’s the one who heard his words, understood them, and put them into practice. And so my my call to everyone listening is how can you frame your life around ingesting Jesus’s words in the Bible, understanding them, which is key. So not just like blindly, you know, you read one, one scripture out of context and then you say, I’m going to live this out to please the Lord. No, no, wrestle with it, understand it, and do it.

Adam Curtis:
How do we live wisely in the light of eternity? And how should that impact our attitude to evangelism?

Femi Kalejaiye:
It should make us more bold and also more compassionate. So as we know that hell is real and the promise of eternal life is also real. We should always talk to someone from the perspective of having their best interest at heart. So anyone can see through a sales pitch instantly. I think people nowadays are much more moved by the authenticity of a Christian slowing down and says, hey, I spent time with you, I know you. I genuinely think it’s in your best interest to give Jesus a go. Genuinely, I could spend my time saying, give this series a go, give this new movie a go, give this new food recipe a go. But because I love you and I care about your soul, let’s have this conversation where you just perhaps consider who Jesus is for yourself.

Leah Sax:
I had this conversation with somebody on Saturday.

Femi Kalejaiye:
Wow. Tell me more.

Adam Curtis:
Share your wisdom Leah

Leah Sax:
Well, we were just catching up on life. We were just having somebody I’ve known for a very long time. I’m going to say somebody I’ve known for 36 years, and we hadn’t seen each other in a while, and we were talking about the fact that I lost my father nearly three years ago and some lost they’d experienced. And then I kind of said, oh, but of course, it makes a huge difference, because I know I’m going to see my father face to face again. And it just makes, you know. And then she said, does it does it really make a difference knowing about new creation? I was like, well, of course it means that life has a purpose and that because of Jesus, I know where I’m going and I know I’ll see my father again. And that was actually the entirety of that conversation. But in God’s kindness, he enabled that conversation because it was the reality of like, you know, this is a real hope of where we are in our lives. And talking about death is not a very contemporary British culture thing to do, is it really? But it is the reality of our lives, actually. I just it was just interesting reflecting on that. You are loving people and I know that person and I want to show them, you know. I’m not I’m not sure I use the most eloquent words. The Holy Spirit was at work i pray.

Femi Kalejaiye:
that’s so good because, for example, the woman at the well, how did she go on to share the gospel after she had this amazing encounter with Jesus that was so strong that she even left behind her bucket that she wanted to get filled, to go and tell people, she says, come and see a man who. Oh,

Adam Curtis:
Who has told me everything I have ever done

Femi Kalejaiye:
Yes. Come and. Come and see a man who has told me everything I’ve ever done. And she’s just blown away by the impact Jesus has had on her life. And it’s from a place of authentic encounter. So I think we’re called to live like that, but also to not be surprised when shyness is a real issue for us that we struggle with. Most of the prayers for evangelism in the book of acts are prayers for the disciples themselves to be filled with boldness when sharing the gospel. And Paul, for example, repeatedly in Ephesians and Colossians, for example, says, pray for me that I might declare the gospel fearlessly as I should. So the fear of man is a real temptation that we all will struggle with at some point. And so I would encourage you, as much as you maybe direct your prayers towards Lord, save this individual and save that individual. Also direct your prayers to yourself and say, God, give me the boldness to share you and also as I share you. Help me to be clear, because that’s actually the pattern of prayer that we see often for evangelism in the New Testament. I think Another way that we start to shape our lives around eternity is by treating it more logically than we think. So Jesus says, where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. And that’s highlighting on the real reality of whatever treasure you own in this life.Your emotional attention gets invested there.

Femi Kalejaiye:
So have you ever met someone who’s just bought a house? We all have. Right. As soon as they exchange contracts, what they start to think of is I need to get insurance for the house. I need to get furniture for the house. I need to get a lawn mower because I’ve got a lawn for the house. I need to decorate the house. I need to host people in the house, the house, the house. The house becomes their obsession. But what practically can you do to start investing in heaven so that your emotional attention gets diverted there? It may be being more involved in your small group at church. It may be selling some of your possessions to give to an orphan or widow that you know. There are so many practical things that we can start doing to put our money where our mouth is. And I remember another example from a friend was he’s a very bright guy. He was a financial director at his company, but he was invited to take the next step up as part of a job promotion. It would have been so easy for him to think because he was about to get married, oh, the extra money could afford me this or that, but instead he looked at it in terms of his time and capacities. He says, actually, I want to invest this much in my church family over the next year, and also in my wife relationally, not just materially, but I don’t think the job promotion would afford me the time to be able to do that. And so he turned it down. And those are the real life decisions that we can start to make when we’re heaven minded and not just earthly minded.

Leah Sax:
Femi, how do we, as brothers and sisters, help each other stay heavenly minded?

Femi Kalejaiye:
It’s always helpful when people live as though eternity is real. For example, that scenario with my friend laying down that job offer just again helped me realise. No, he’s counting the cost. Why don’t I be like him and count the cost for my own life too? I remember someone who’s on the staff team at our church used to go touring as a professional musician.

Leah Sax:
You mean Phil Short, who was also a guest on an episode of Delight Podcast?

Femi Kalejaiye:
Amazing. Amazing. Yes, yes. I remember the first time I heard his story of just realising the lifestyle was not conducive to him serving the Lord in the way that he wanted to, and he was just so sober. That is the word I would use. As he was sharing, I was like, man, this guy has 2020 vision here. But the more as a community, we embraced this lifestyle to lay down earthly treasures in order to pick up eternal ones. It helps us keep the right perspective.

Adam Curtis:
And then, Femi, how do we live wisely in light of eternity? How could it increase our capacity for joy?

Femi Kalejaiye:
I’m glad that you asked that question, because in the Christian life, eternity is what will cause you to make it to the end and persevere. So in 1 Corinthians 15, for example, Paul says, if the dead aren’t raised, then why don’t we eat and drink for tomorrow? We die. And his rebuke to the Corinthians was they were starting to be lax when it came to sin in their lives, because they saw no prospect of ruling and reigning with Jesus in the new heavens and new earth. But he has to snap them out of it. And often it’s the knowledge that eternity is where we’re going to dwell forever that helps us resist temptation now, because we know that we have a better and lasting possession. Adam, I remember a few years ago my flesh met the woman of its dreams. If I could just be open for a second.

Adam Curtis:
What a statement.

Femi Kalejaiye:
My flesh met the woman of its dreams. And I’m someone who has always advocated for holiness when it comes to dating and relationships. I’ve been on panels where I’ve encouraged people to not date those who don’t share the same outlook and love for Jesus as they do. And I couldn’t believe it. Adam. When a few years ago, being in this commercial environment where I was just struck by this, by this, by this woman, she was very bright, very creative. I asked her once whether, you know, she loved the Lord Jesus and she. She replied that she absolutely couldn’t stand him and I was shocked, but I felt my flesh just saying, oh no, she said. Well, I felt my spirit saying, oh no. But my flesh was really enticed. And I remember walking through the journey of having to rehearse the line in the Old Testament that obedience is better than sacrifice. It was better to obey the Lord than to gratify my flesh, and ask this lady out on a date and get to know her. But what got me through, believe it or not, was Matthew five, where Jesus says, blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. And I realised that this was an opportunity for me to mourn the earthly comforts and earthly pleasures that my flesh wanted, and our flesh wants to have its cake and eat it too. But Jesus calls us to a higher standard, and it’s worth it. Every ounce of mourning that we do in this life, where we divest ourselves of earthly comforts in order to pick up the eternal treasures of heaven and to do the Lord’s will, will be rewarded with bucketfuls of comfort. And you need to know as you resist sin. I need to know as I resist sin, that it’s totally worth it.

Leah Sax:
It was really helpful to see the outworking and the reasoning behind what it means to be heavenly minded. It was really helpful to retie myself to those truths of what it means to live for eternity. And also, Femi did have me or the Word of God had me when he was talking in that language right at the start of the creator who, you know, underpins the greatest symphonies. The music will be better, the food will be richer, there is goodness and that beautiful picture of heaven as well, because I am one of those people that sometimes gets completely overwhelmed by the concept of the new creation and eternity.

Adam Curtis:
Yes, he was speaking at the beginning. It sort of drew my mind to C.S. Lewis in the last battle there in the new Narnia, which is meant to be like a picture in image of the new creation. And there’s this phrase which is said again and again, like further up and further in, like come on, further up and further in, like there’s more to explore and to see and to understand and to comprehend and and as exciting as a new creation is, there’s still going to be more of it. And this really heavy, heavy topic of heaven and hell and eternity to be drawn in by heaven and spending eternity with the God who knows us and loves us and made us. That is that is beautiful.

Leah Sax:
Femi, thank you so much for giving us your time and your God given wisdom. Today it’s time for our season six bonus question. And our question this season is what are you currently most thankful for?

Femi Kalejaiye:
I’m thankful for how our little series at church called Honest Questions has been going. We’ve been gathering some people on the top floor of a pub in Mayfair to explore Christianity, and so far over 30 unique people have come over two weeks and it’s. Yeah, it’s been such a joy to hear them grapple with the things of faith, but just to ask really honest questions to do with God. And I think anytime people dedicate a Tuesday night to discuss faith, we should take it as a blessing from the Lord. So I’m just so thankful for how that’s gone so far.

Leah Sax:
Praise God that is actually a wrap and also 30 separate people. That’s awesome.

Femi Kalejaiye:
I know right? I know right. It’s just yeah, remarkable. I’m really thankful.

Leah Sax:
Thank you so much to Femi Kalejaiye for being our guest on episode 27 of Delight Podcast. Next week we’re back to one of Adam’s friends as our guest. We have the wonderful Rachel Meynell talking to us on the topic of keeping the serious tone disappointment. Until then, this is Adam and Leah delightfully signing off. Bye bye.

Adam Curtis:
Bye!