TRANSCRIPT Episode 28: Disappointment – trusting God’s providence

Leah Sax:
Hello and welcome to episode 28 of Delight Podcast. I’m Leah Sax.

Adam Curtis:
Hello, and I’m Adam Curtis.

Leah Sax:
You are like, the most cheerful human I’ve ever met. Adam.

Adam Curtis:
It’s a good day, Leah. It’s a good day.

Leah Sax:
I’m so glad we are indeed well into season six now. Can I just say, I’m very excited that last week we got to have one of my friends as a guest. I loved hearing Femi’s clarity and hope of looking at actually, heaven and hell and the real impact that has on our lives. We are back to having one of your guests again today. Adam, you’ve got all these amazing contacts. If you’re listening and you’re one of my friends and you want to be a guest on the podcast, just let me know.

Adam Curtis:
This is dangerous. I was encouraged to know that you had friends. Well, today we are indeed moving on to another one of my friends and another topic. We’re moving on to the topic of disappointment with my friend and colleague, Rachel Meynell. Rachel is the Minister for women and pastoral care at Saint Mary’s, Maidenhead.

Leah Sax:
Rachel, welcome to Delight Podcast.

Rachel Meynell:
Thank you very much. It’s very nice to be with you.

Leah Sax:
I am thrilled that you are here with us. Now, I’m asking this question because I need to know the answer. Because I’ve only just met you. Because you are a work colleague of Adams, even possibly a friend. But, Rachel, what do you do? What is the key thing that we should know about you?

Rachel Meynell:
My name is Rachel Meynell and I work at Saint Mary’s with Adam. I’m a minister for pastoral care and women’s ministry, and I love doing that job. I’m married with two adult children. I was brought up and lived the first 18 years of my life in East Africa. That’s quite a distinguishing feature in my own mind of myself.

Leah Sax:
Oh, whereabouts in East Africa was that?

Rachel Meynell:
I was born in Uganda, and then we lived in Kenya and Malawi.

Leah Sax:
What took you that part of the world?

Rachel Meynell:
My dad was an accountant and he was setting up Christian accountancy offices, so we travelled around with him doing that.

Leah Sax:
So did you come to faith as an adult or did you come to faith as a child?

Rachel Meynell:
I came to faith as a child, my grandfather said. I came to faith on his knee when I was about six, which I don’t remember at all. But I think it probably was true because I came over here for boarding school, as everyone did in the olden days. And I, I did continue to stand as a Christian, even though there wasn’t really much going on for me as a Christian. So I have a sense that that was a real conversion when I was a child. Very graciously, God allowed me to to know him really for the whole of my life.

Leah Sax:
Obviously, it’s been a short period of time, obviously, since that conversion time because, you know.

Rachel Meynell:
Only about 50 years. Yes.

Leah Sax:
How have you seen God at work in your life? I imagine you’ve got lots of stories to tell, but are there any specific stories that you think, ah, God was really at work teaching me, growing me during this season of life.

Rachel Meynell:
When I left school, I did nursing at that time, I think was the time of the biggest kind of time of growth for me. I started to go to a church where there was good Bible teaching and went to a small group that just. I’d never really studied the Bible in that sort of way. So that was really, really helpful. I think throughout my childhood I saw faith lived out very clearly and that really helped. We didn’t always have great teaching where we were, but my parents were very good at trusting the Lord. Sometimes when we moved country, we didn’t have many possessions or much money or much idea of what was going to happen. I think having seen it lived out, that was fantastic as a child. And then when I was a student nurse, I felt like I really grew in my understanding of the gospel and of studying the Bible, which was wonderful.

Leah Sax:
Do you think there have been particular times of trial or challenge where that feeding in those early days has really sustained you?

Rachel Meynell:
I think parenting has not always been easy. Obviously it isn’t for anybody. We lived in Uganda ourselves when the children were little, and there were some quite difficult things there that we had with some of our friends in particular. Family life hasn’t always been easy, and I think there have been times of real growth through that. I did the biblical counselling course as well, and that helped me a lot with trying to work through how one deals with difficult situations and and why God puts us all together with the people he puts us together with. And he knows exactly what he’s doing, which is marvellous.

Leah Sax:
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Adam Curtis:
Our lives seem to be filled with ‘if only’. We go out to a restaurant and if only I had ordered that meal rather than one I ended up with. If only I had a relaxed holiday rather than the stressful one it turned out to be. If only Christmas had been a moment of joyous family harmony, rather than a shouting match or a period of prolonged silences. We often seem to be disappointed with the little things in life. And then there are the big things. You get married, and it’s much more painful and difficult than you were expecting. You want to have kids and it’s just really hard. Or you want to get married and the right person just never comes along. You get that promotion, but then suddenly all your evenings are just gone, or that job promotion just never comes your way and you just feel bored and dejected. You want to save enough for a deposit, but there’s never enough money left over in the tin. We have all these plans we think will do us good, and it seems that God just says no. Life can be just so disappointing, Rachel. Does God really know what’s best for me?

Rachel Meynell:
Yes, Adam. He does. It’s kind of an easy yes, in a way, but it’s also very complex. Yes. It’s not always hard to believe. It raises all sorts of things in us. But yes, he does.

Adam Curtis:
Tell me more when you say it’s complex. What do you mean by that?

Rachel Meynell:
What God wants for our best isn’t always what we think we want for our best. Just thinking about disappointment itself. That’s when the things that we hope for and dream of don’t happen. When the kind of reality of our lives doesn’t meet our expectations. Sometimes our expectations are different from what God’s expectations are in our lives. So we might hope for for things like a comfortable life and an easy life or a happy life. Whereas God has got eternity in view and is working to a different agenda with us. He’s working to something very, very, very much better, but something that’s not always easy for us to see is better. One of the illustrations I love is the illustration of the tapestry, where you think about the back of a tapestry looking a mess, and the front of the tapestry being beautiful. Often our perspective is the back of the tapestry, and God’s is the front. And he sees the picture and he knows what he’s doing. But one of the difficulties is trusting him when it’s really hard.

Adam Curtis:
Why do you think we get disappointed?

Rachel Meynell:
Well, we live in a fallen world. We live in a world where things don’t go. Go right, don’t we? We live in a world which is full of sin and death, which shouldn’t have been there in the first place, but are there because of the fall. And so everything is broken. So relationships are broken, so we will disappoint one another. Suffering and illness is a reality. So our hopes of healthy bodies, our hopes of not missing out on things because we’re ill, whatever. We will be disappointed because the world is not the way it’s meant to be.

Adam Curtis:
And does that mean we should just give up hoping if we’re never going to, in this life, see the glorious side of the tapestry, or only get glimpses of it, would it just be easier if we just stopped? Are we allowed to have dreams and to have goals?

Rachel Meynell:
Yes, I think we should have dreams and goals. We’re not fatalists in that sense. It is good to have dreams and goals, but we have those dreams and goals. Acknowledging that God is sovereign over those dreams and goals. It’s good to aim for things. We have our passions. God gives us our passions and our gifts and our skills. He calls us to do things. He gives us excitement about doing things and looking ahead to whatever it might be a different job, or studying something or whatever it is. So I think it is good to have those things, but somehow to hold on to them under God’s sovereignty in the sense that we we make our plans, but we know that he is the one who directs our paths. Ultimately, it’s up to him what happens. Good to keep hoping, good to keep planning, but good to keep remembering that God does know what he’s doing when things don’t go as we as we had thought or hoped.

Adam Curtis:
Okay, it’s good to keep planning and hoping. Why is it then that that God sometimes says no or not yet?

Rachel Meynell:
Because he knows better than us. So sometimes God does say no to things because he knows better. Sometimes we have to wait. But it’s always for our growth in godliness and in the kingdom. And I think that’s one of the amazing things about the Christian faith is that nothing is ever wasted. So, you know, there’s no bad luck or whatever because God is always up to something in whatever our circumstances are. So nothing, nothing is wasted. So when he says not yet or no, he’s doing that because he’s up to something better than we can see or understand at that moment.

Adam Curtis:
Yeah, I can think back about some of the times I’ve struggled, even with my own questions about identity and why am I a single man where I’d love to be married? I’d love to have kids. And yet, in lots of that wrestling and lots of that questioning, those have been the moments which have forced me to rely on God and forced me to yet to stop trying to find a hope in this world, and actually to find my hope in my Heavenly Father.

Leah Sax:
Those things also point out that you can’t find ultimate hope in this world. Every time we come to that, disappointed in what we feel, what we feel should be happening, it just shows you our hopelessness and we need that greater hope in Jesus, right?

Rachel Meynell:
Absolutely, absolutely. And life is full of surprises, isn’t it? We can look back and think, actually, oh yes, God did know what he was doing.

Adam Curtis:
Let’s add into this equation that sometimes we’re not actually just disappointed with how the outcomes of life have gone. But actually sometimes we’re also disappointed in God himself, particularly when you face disappointment and you’re trusting in the Lord Jesus. And that makes me wonder, like, are we allowed to be disappointed in God?

Rachel Meynell:
Well, here’s an example. Mary and Martha with Jesus, their brother Lazarus is about to die. They send for Jesus. He waits a couple of days and then he comes to see them, by which time Lazarus is dead. And the first thing they say to him is, if you were here, my brother would not have died. They’re very disappointed that Jesus didn’t come when they asked him to come. Now Jesus deals very, very graciously with them, doesn’t he? He talks to them both as individuals. He answers one with I am the resurrection and the life, and the other. He weeps with. He weeps with Mary. Ultimately, of course, they didn’t need to be disappointed because he had a much better plan. Now, obviously, mostly when we’re disappointed with things or if somebody is ill, it doesn’t mean that Jesus is going to rock up and and raise them to life. So I’m not suggesting that, but but I think the sisters were disappointed in Jesus, but they didn’t need to be disappointed because Jesus did have a better plan and he knew what he was doing. It is generally lack of our trust and faith and understanding that might lead us to feel disappointed with God. And I think the important thing is that we go to God with that and say, I’m finding this hard and ask him to help us to trust him through it, and to love him through it, and to grow in our love and trust through it.

Adam Curtis:
Oh yeah, I hear that this episode and that answer to that question does remind me. It takes me back to an episode we did on doubt with Kristi Mair, where on one level, I entered it into the episode thinking it’s almost wrong to doubt, she helpfully reframed it. Actually, there can be a goodness in the doubting. It allows you to unpick what you previously thought you knew and leads you to a place of like new knowing and new understanding. And I wonder if that’s also true of the disappointing, if it’s done in a posture of humility and it ends up leading you to God in dependence. And actually, that’s the thing which is healthy and good.

Leah Sax:
Because disappointment can be a very emotional thing, right? Like it can seem like your whole world. And if you are, you know, trying to live day by day for Jesus, a natural place is to take that is to him, isn’t it? You want it, as you know, cast your burdens or your disappointments on him because he cares for you. And there’s actually something quite beautiful in saying to the Lord, I’m just so sad about this and why, oh Lord, but if that brings you closer to him, that’s wonderful. And we we are God’s handiwork. We are his created creatures. It is a good thing to go to our creator, who knows every part of our hearts and go create a God. This is something I’m just really struggling with.

Rachel Meynell:
Absolutely. And the Bible is full of people doing that, isn’t it? I mean, think about Hannah when she wanted to have a baby crying out to God in the temple. Think about, you know, the psalms of lament, where people don’t understand what’s going on and go and cry out to the Lord. Some of those things are kind of more than disappointment, aren’t they? But within disappointment there is grief and loss, and it is really healthy and good, I think, to acknowledge that and to acknowledge it before God.

Adam Curtis:
I wonder, Rachel, if you’ve already answered really my next question, is there a right time to be disappointed?

Rachel Meynell:
Yes, I think there is a right time to be disappointed, because sometimes we have hopes that a good hopes, we have a hope that a baby we have will be healthy. Now again, that’s kind of greater than disappointment, isn’t it? But however, we have a hope that our friend will be loyal to us, and if they’re not, we’re disappointed. And I think it is right to be disappointed. Sometimes the danger comes, I guess if we get stuck in it. Living in a fallen world brings disappointment, doesn’t it? To hope that we will have a healthy body is a good thing to hope for, because it’s part of living in a fallen world that we don’t have a healthy body. Isn’t it that we’re disappointed that our bodies stop us doing things we want to do, or whatever it might be. I think the danger comes as we know, is when the things that we hope for become the thing that then defines whether we can be happy or not. And that thing has then become more of an idol than a hope.

Adam Curtis:
Are there bad ways that we can respond to disappointment?

Rachel Meynell:
Yes, I think there are. We can respond with jealousy for people who have the things that we don’t have. We can become bitter if we don’t have the things that we hoped for. We can become those sorts of people who always look on, sort of think, oh, well, nothing good ever happens to me, so I’ll never hope for anything. We can be people full of doom and gloom, and we can be those who who live with a sense of regret all the time that, as you mentioned right at the beginning, Adam, that whole kind of thing of if only, if only. And that, I think, can be very dominating in our lives if we spend our whole lives thinking, if only this or if only that had happened, then, then I would be happy, then everything would be all right. Then all my relationships would be fine. Of course, that’s not true, and we know that. So I think there are many unhelpful ways that we can respond to disappointment. And I guess going back to the idolatry thing, holding on to things so tightly that the Lord has not given us, for whatever reason, not trusting in God’s sovereignty over things. When things have happened, there have been situations where I think, oh, if that person had been there, this wouldn’t have happened. If I’d gone five minutes earlier, I wouldn’t have got stuck in this traffic jam. You can get yourself a bit tied up in knots over that without thinking, actually under God. He knew. He knew the timing.

Adam Curtis:
Oh, and that example which you gave us earlier of Mary and Martha. You can totally understand it, can’t you, from their perspective, like if only Jesus had been here.

Rachel Meynell:
Yes. Yes, absolutely.

Adam Curtis:
And yet, because he wasn’t there, they got to understand that he is the resurrection and the life. When they saw him raise his brother, they didn’t know at that moment, understandably, how much more glorious the outcome actually was.

Rachel Meynell:
I know, I think that’s a really, really helpful story, actually, when we’re thinking about disappointment for that reason. But as I said, obviously we’re not promising that everybody’s brothers will be raised from the dead. But of course, the promises everybody in Christ will be raised from the dead. And that actually is the most glorious thing that we all have. And that is true for all of us, however disappointed we are in different areas of our lives.

Adam Curtis:
Yes, because that’s a glorious future hope. When we’re struggling with a body which is failing us, we can know that actually this body is not our eternity. How can we respond well to disappointment?

Rachel Meynell:
Disappointment often involves loss, and I do think it is a good response to acknowledge that loss before the Lord may be with our friends, and to talk it through. Sometimes we may need to repent. If there are things that are taking the place of God, there are ways that we’ve got stuck in our disappointment. It is good to say sorry to God for those things. We don’t want to bottle things up. We do want to acknowledge the pain and turn to him in repentance, and ask him to help us with the disappointment, to help us to deal with it. It’s interesting in 1 Corinthians 7 where Paul, he talks about where you circumcised when you came to faith or were you uncircumcised. You stay in the position that you were in. In a sense, they were obviously some of them maybe were disappointed that they weren’t Jews or they weren’t Gentiles. And Paul says no. How were you when the Lord called you? So there’s a trust in God’s sovereignty over what he’s given us. And when we don’t believe that, it is good to repent of that and to say sorry to him. One of the things that I’ve really been learning recently, while I’ve been looking at this, is the sort of understanding of God’s providence in our lives.

Rachel Meynell:
In other words, what I mean by that is that God is organising our circumstances for our good and for the good of those around us. I think that is such a helpful truth that, for me, has transformed how I’ve been seeing things, certainly since I’ve been doing a bit of reading on this. There’s a verse I love from Romans chapter eight where Paul says in verse 32 he says, he who did not spare his own son, but gave him up for us all, how will he not also along with him, graciously give us all things? So you’ve got that idea in that verse that God gave us His Son, he gave us his most precious thing. He gave us Jesus. How much more will he not give us good things if he’s given us that? Of course he loves to give us good things as we think about the hard things in our lives, and we’re disappointed by things and we think, why has God not given me that or allowed me to miss out on this, or whatever it is, is to ask God to help us, to trust that he is actually giving us good things in what he is giving us.

Leah Sax:
God’s definition of good is so much better than our definition of good. It’s just a struggle when in our hearts we think our definition, our creature over creator mentality knows better. But God’s definition of good, which is something we struggle to accept, is so much better than ours, isn’t it?

Rachel Meynell:
Absolutely. We like to put our trust in the things of the world that we can see, don’t we? Rather than in God. There’s a wonderful picture in the Book of Job of what it’s like to trust in things that are not of the world. And in job chapter eight, it says what they trust in is fragile. What they rely on is a spider’s web. They lean on the web, but it gives away what an amazing picture of leaning and relying on the wrong things, because we know how ridiculous it is to lean on a spider’s web. You would never do that, would you? And yet it’s by faith. So it’s hard because we don’t always see what God is up to and that is difficult. Another thing is, is to cultivate gratitude. I think this is what understanding God’s providence or the way he’s ordering our circumstances is important. But also becoming grateful people is so, so, so important to to turn our eyes from ourselves to our Lord.

Adam Curtis:
How can we actually do that? How can we cultivate a grateful heart?

Rachel Meynell:
Spending time in God’s Word where we see all that he has given us. It’s very striking. In our small groups at church, we’ve been looking at the first few chapters of acts, and when Peter and John get out of prison the first time, they go back to the believers and they start by praising God that he is the creator of the universe, that he is the giver of life and all the good things. I can’t remember exactly what, but it’s so interesting that that is where they begin. At that point. For us, it’s trying to remember who God is and what he’s done for us is a really good starting point. I think probably a daily discipline of gratitude is good. Maybe we need to learn better how to turn our eyes from ourselves to our Lord. Gratitude helps us to do that, but also maybe memorising a little bit of the Bible that we can bring to mind when our minds are on ourselves. One of the ones that I like to go back to is Psalm 23. The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not be in need. That’s one that people often have sung and maybe more familiar for people. And sometimes, if my eyes are on myself, I think the Lord is my shepherd. What does that mean? Ah, the one who made the world is looking after me, and straight away my eyes are focussed up to him and from myself.

Leah Sax:
And it’s that kind of 1 Thessalonians rejoice always, pray continually, give thanks in all circumstances. I think as as human beings, we tend to give thanks in certain circumstances. But it’s that. Do you know what I mean? We’re like, oh, thank you for this amazing thing I have, but thank you for a new day. Thank you that your mercies are new every morning. Thank you for this conversation, this cup of coffee. It is a is an attitude of the heart. I’ve been pondering this recently that in different seasons of my life, I’m better at being thankful than in other times. So for example, as a self-employed person, when I’ve got no work, I’m like, thank you for this gig. And in the peak, I think it’s all about me. And I’m like, well, I’ve done all this hard work. But that posture to use. Adams well, Podcasted term of the heart is to make it in the daily and in every detail. And I think also with each other. Rachel, I’m genuinely so thankful also to the Lord that you’ve given up your time to podcast with us today and to share. Do you know what I mean? Though? I am thankful to the Lord for that. Like I’m aware you’re giving up time and well.

Rachel Meynell:
Thank you for inviting me. I’m having a lot fun here.

Rachel Meynell:
So, you know, I’m also thankful for it. But yes. No, you’re right. It’s trying to help ourselves see that, isn’t it? And I realise that for some people, when life is really hard, that is very, very difficult to do. However, I think there must be wisdom, mustn’t there, in in seeking to ask the Lord to help us with that. And it’s interesting, isn’t it, in the Psalms, that in all the Psalms where people are struggling, they end positive with some praise, apart from Psalm 88. That Psalm does not end with hope. That can be very, very helpful for people when they are feeling very, very low. It’s interesting, isn’t it, that apart from Psalm 88, the other Psalms, they do turn, they do remind themselves of things that change their hearts, and they do manage to rejoice in the Lord as well.

Leah Sax:
This feels like an apt time just to mention that I guess we are talking about disappointment as opposed to mental health struggles at the moment. So if things are just really hard, I just want to voice that out loud because that is a clear difference. And I think we had a lovely podcast with Helen Thorn on that. But if you’re at home and things are really tough, we’re not saying just be thankful. Exactly.

Rachel Meynell:
We have to be careful.

Adam Curtis:
Quite a few moments in this podcast, we’ve spoken about going to the Lord, Acknowledging that he’s our good Shepherd. What should we then be praying for as we’re going to the Lord? In our disappointment?

Rachel Meynell:
One of the things that it’s really helpful to ask God to help us when we’re praying is that he would align our will with his. So when we’re disappointed in things, often it’s because we want something that God knows isn’t the best thing for us. It’s really hard to accept, but we mustn’t forget that His Spirit lives in our hearts and he can change our desires and our hopes. We forget that we have this extraordinary privilege, that we can ask the living God to help us with these things. So I think that’s a really big thing to come to God and say, please help me to grow in my trust of what you’re doing, and please change my heart on this. And we may need to really persevere in that prayer. What we find in those situations, I guess you probably found as well, is that God does change your heart, and sometimes I’m very bad at noticing when he has. And a few months later I might think, oh, that has changed. Oh yes, I did pray about that. And I forgot that he’d answered that prayer.

Leah Sax:
Something that I’ve been learning recently is in our small groups. We’re looking at Ephesians at the moment at church and Bible study. And, you know, I’ve been a believer for how long? And I’m still like, oh, yes, Leah, this is probably how I should pray. So my prayer is this is Ephesians 1:17. This is what Paul prays in his letter. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. It’s that prayer that we would know God better. It’s that prayer for our heart as opposed to for physical things. And again, it’s not wrong to pray for physical things, but I love that this example is our prayers are about knowing God better, and that’s been my prayer at the moment. And it’s I feel like I should have known this and done this better earlier on, but that’s currently what I’m learning.

Adam Curtis:
What about that person who just feels like they’re swimming through treacle at this moment? That disappointments just keep on spiralling and keep on hitting them. Whether it’s they’ve ordered the wrong meal. They had a terrible Christmas. They didn’t get the job promotion they wanted. How does someone start looking for hope? If they just feel like they’re in that spiral of endless disappointment?

Rachel Meynell:
I think it’s hard. I think we need each other. Choosing wisely a friend to share that with and letting other people try and speak into that can really help. I think sometimes going back again to Scripture and seeing how people did change. Psalm 56 is a psalm that I find helpful, and you’ve got a sort of process of somebody wanting to trust God and then trusting God. A lot of the Christian life feels like it is crawling through hard things, doesn’t it? God knows that. And he understands. And it’s remembering that Jesus does know how hard it is. He was tempted in every way, and that he is with us and he’s crying out for help.

Leah Sax:
I think also I’ve been struck by by friends who have kind of applied the mourn with those who mourn. You know, you were talking earlier about the grief of disappointment. It’s just sometimes just sitting with a brother and sister and going, yeah, this is really hard and with wisdom and respect how the Holy Spirit prompts your heart, whether that is through prayer or whether that is through spending time in the word or it’s just being there, I think that can be very precious. I’m just struck by everything that you’re saying is that, you know, disappointment is us living in a fallen world, and that points us back to needing a saviour. Disappointment is not thinking that things are good and wanting a bigger picture of what is good, which points us back to our Saviour who. It’s so hard, though, when you’re in the midst of that, isn’t it?

Rachel Meynell:
It really is. And that is why we need Christian community and also the disciplines of the Christian life, by which I mean that it is good to spend some time in God’s Word each day and to pray, because I will find quite often when I pick up the Bible, even if I don’t feel like it, it will say something very relevant to me. I’ll think, oh yes, God knew what I needed to hear today. Why am I surprised by that?

Adam Curtis:
And we’ve touched on here in multiple different ways that that need for Christian community, that need to be part of a church, to go to church to have friends who you could rely on. But it’s also true that there’s moments where we can see that a friend is struggling with disappointment. How can we be a good friend to someone else as they’re going through that stage of life?

Rachel Meynell:
If we think about Jesus with Mary and Martha, he speaks differently to the two sisters. So with Martha, he says, do you believe, actually, I need to look it up. But he knows them, doesn’t he? He speaks to them according to their personalities, I guess so. Martha goes running out to him first. Lord, Martha says, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask. Jesus said, your brother will rise again. Martha said, I know he will rise again in the resurrection. Jesus says, I am the resurrection and the life. Do you believe this? And then when Mary comes out, they start with the same sort of conversation. Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died when Jesus saw her weeping. And the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved. And he weeps. Interestingly, with those two sisters, with one of them, he just weeps with the other one. He gives a little bit of a theological lesson, doesn’t he? He says, do you believe this? I think we can do those things. And I think just the kind of practical things of being a good friend, taking somebody out for a coffee, doing something nice with somebody and just gently asking questions, maybe that help them to see the good things that they do have, or to get a different perspective.

Adam Curtis:
As you were speaking. It reminded me of a time a friend had received some really very tragic news, very sad news. And sometimes in those moments, there’s a lot of pressure on me as a as a vicar, to have something to say and to know what to do and how to act in that moment. But I did just have these examples of Jesus with Mary and Martha, even the encouragement in job just to sit in silence. And I remember that strong sense of Adam, don’t you don’t have to say anything. We could just be silent together. Now. We can cry some tears. We can have a huge hug. It is just resting in our ability to mourn. And I’ve also discovered then at other times that there are moments when someone shares something. And again, I struggled to think of good advice, but I know I can take that to the Lord in prayer right then and there. And I don’t have to say to them, I’m going to pray for you. I can just pray for them. And even that very simple act is emotionally very powerful.

Leah Sax:
And I think the act of praying for someone, I find it a privilege to do that for my believing friends and my non-believing friends. If a non-believing friend is struggling with something, I’ll say, I’m praying for you, and it can be a little wrench in our hearts when we’re like, oh, you’re not a believer. What you really need is to know this great hope and saviour, but I will still pray for you.

Rachel Meynell:
Absolutely.

Adam Curtis:
That’s a that’s a rebuke.

Rachel Meynell:
The fact that God puts us in a community means that when there are times when we can’t do something, somebody else in a sense, can do it. So when there are times when we don’t really don’t understand and find it very hard to ask God, our friends can be praying for us. There is a real hope in that.

Adam Curtis:
It is a non-believing friend of ours who’s struggling with disappointment. How do you think we can encourage them and get alongside them? We can actually be praying for them. Are the tips of our ears.

Rachel Meynell:
Well, I think the one about acknowledging the loss, obviously, is works for anybody, doesn’t it? You know, for anybody who’s disappointed, it’s helpful to let them express themselves and their disappointment. And I wonder also whether to say to somebody, well, all is not lost because of this happening, that there is hope. But ultimately I think we do want to point them to the fact that we trust in a God who doesn’t make mistakes and who does know what he’s doing in their lives as well, whether or not they would be happy with you saying that, I don’t know, but I think suggesting that they think about the fact that there is a God who knows and that things are not just bad luck living in a world where there is nobody in control and where things are just bad luck is quite a terrifying prospect. That is where people are living, isn’t it? If they don’t believe in God.

Adam Curtis:
You’re right. That is a terrifying. That’s a horrible world of blind chance and indifference and an uncaring universe. It’s much more glorious world, knowing that there is a father above who we can go to as his children.

Leah Sax:
Thank you, Adam, for getting your Maidenhead crew on the podcast. It was lovely to meet you. Never say that again. Ever in your entire life. I was actually struck very early on by that beautiful image of the tapestry that we kind of see the back, but God sees this glorious, bigger and beautiful picture, and it just shows us how we can get lost in the mess of the detail. But actually, it is a beautiful, good thing God has for us, even though it can feel rubbish.

Adam Curtis:
I was just really struck by is how normal disappointment is in life. Many things can be going well in life, and yet you can still be disappointed with things. And in this everyday struggle which we can go through of disappointment, there’s actually genuine help. Like resting on glorious truths that God is in control, seated on the throne, that this world will pass away and a new creation will come that actually we can go to our Heavenly Father and ask for help. This cultivating like hearts of gratitude as it is so great, glorious, wonderful to know that in the midst of disappointment, there is help.

Leah Sax:
And I was just really encouraged to be reminded by Rachel that God can change our hearts. I think we just think, oh, I’m in this state of mind. I want this forever. I’ll be sad about this forever. But no, God is at work. We are being sanctified. We have that great episode on sanctification, and we’re being refined, and we’re being made holy even in the midst of our deepest disappointment.

Leah Sax:
Rachel, thank you so much for being our guest today. We have come to the point in our podcast where we ask our surprise, not surprise. Bonus question. And this season’s question is what are you currently most thankful for?

Rachel Meynell:
Well, apart from the fact that the sun is shining and the autumn leaves are out, which is something I just love. Um. I’m very thankful that the Lord has put me, has surrounded me with such lovely people at home, at work, at church. I feel very, very grateful to God for the people that he’s put around me. They bring me a lot of joy because I’m quite an extrovert and I love spending time with them.

Leah Sax:
Well, as an introvert, I’m very thankful for the time you have spent with us today. I’m also enjoying the fact that this episode will possibly air in the spring, where we’ll have new leaves on the tree, and that somebody might be listening to it in the summer, while the leaves might be completely different. So I’m thankful for the seasons all year round. Rachel, thank you so much for being a guest on Delight Podcast.

Rachel Meynell:
Very nice to meet you, Leah, and to see you again, Adam from yesterday.

Leah Sax:
Great ending guys. Great ending.

Leah Sax:
Thank you so much to Rachel Meynell for being our guest on Delight Podcast today. Next week our guest is going to be us, Adam.

Adam Curtis:
And it’s going to be incredible.

Leah Sax:
It’s going to be incredible. We are going to be looking at the topic of Easter. Until then, it’s Adam and Leah delightfully signing off. Bye bye.

Adam Curtis:
Bye.