Leah Sax:
Hello and welcome to episode 34 of Delight Podcast. I’m Leah Sax.
Adam Curtis:
Hello and I am Adam Curtis and Leah i have been loving this season so far.
Leah Sax:
I’m sure you’re filled with humility for that.
Adam Curtis:
Well, thankfully I can be humble because it’s basically all down to our amazing guests like Lucy on stillness, Ed on intimacy, Debs on spiritual Battles last week, what an episode. This has just been such a treat.
Leah Sax:
It has been such a treat. I think this is an extra treat for us as well today, because for this, our fourth episode of the season, we have an old, old friend joining us who we have known from our camp days. So how long have you known him, brother?
Adam Curtis:
That’s it. I. Well, we were on camp together probably for 17 years, but I don’t know if we always were friends in that time.
Leah Sax:
I said known, I didn’t say friends.
Adam Curtis:
Okay, fine. It is in the same way that I’ve known you for quite a few years, Leah. But I’m not quite yet your friend.
Leah Sax:
We were always friends.
Adam Curtis:
Like you’re my friend, but I’m not sure if I’m yours.
Leah Sax:
Stop being ridiculous. I’ve known Jonathon for at least 17 years. Jonathon Burrows is our guest today on Delight Podcast. We’re going to be talking on the topic of wisdom, and he is currently the youth minister at Christ Church, Cockfosters in North London.
Adam Curtis:
Hello and welcome to the podcast, Jonathon.
Jonathon Burrows:
Hello, Adam. Hello, Leah. How are you?
Adam Curtis:
Oh, we’re good and we are even better having you here on the podcast with us now. Jonathon, me and Leah or Leah and I, I should probably say, have the honour and the joy of knowing you for many years and serving on campus together with you. But many of our listeners won’t know you. So could you maybe give us, like, your elevator pitch to describe yourself?
Jonathon Burrows:
Oh. Elevator pitches. That’s a that’s a bold start. Uh, I’m Jonathon, and I’m just an ordinary Christian, uh, who happens to now be working as a youth minister at Christ Church, Cockfosters in north London. I have a wife who is amazing, Sarah, and I’ve got four children Rosie, Zach, Annabella and Hattie, who, when they hear that on our Alexa, will think it’s the best thing ever.
Adam Curtis:
And I’m right in saying, Jonathon, I know that you’re a regular listener to the podcast.
Jonathon Burrows:
Yeah, I do listen to the podcast. I really enjoy listening to it when I’m on the train. I used to go to Cornhill and it used to be my go to thing, listening to your podcast, and I have listened to many of them.
Adam Curtis:
Well, that is encouraging. It’s encouraging to have a fan on the show.
Leah Sax:
He didn’t say he was a fan, he just said he listened adam.
Adam Curtis:
I’ve decided to project positive thoughts onto Jonathon.
Jonathon Burrows:
I will say I am a fan. I think what you’re doing is great, and I’m really encouraged by the way you’re helping baby believers, more mature believers, to come to a deeper and stronger relationship with the Lord. I really thank you for what you’re doing.
Adam Curtis:
Oh, thank you Jonathon.
Leah Sax:
We didn’t prep him for that just so.
Adam Curtis:
Yeah, I’ll wire you the cash for that later. We would love to get to know you a little bit deeper. Can you tell us how you came to know the Lord?
Jonathon Burrows:
Yeah, well, I didn’t grow up in a Christian home, so I was just raised as sort of normal, secular British kid. My mum started going to church like at Christmas when I was about 11. Occasionally when I went to Sunday school a tiny bit, then started going to the summer camps that they talked about because there was sports there and sports was my thing. Sport was all that was all I cared about. So I started going to camp, and then I got kicked out of the youth group at that church for poor behaviour, which is like, yeah, it was quite justified at the time. I was certainly not a, um, very well behaved young man, as I’m sure you two probably have memories of.
Adam Curtis:
I hope that means that you love those poorly behaved kids in your youth group.
Jonathon Burrows:
Yeah, I do. And I realised that, yeah, I was way worse than any of them are. So I’ve been incredibly blessed. But going along to camp, sort of hearing what the gospel meant, I suppose I could have always articulated the gospel. It was head knowledge. I could definitely have told you that Jesus died for people’s sins, and that I can be saved. And I should pray and go to church. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But it was really just one year on camp. I was 20, I was doing the task force role on our camp, which is like the serving role that, well, the big serving role of just doing endless jobs. When I was doing that, I just noticed that my leaders, for them, faith wasn’t what was going on in their head. It was everything that they did, and they cared about everything. And it was amazing listening to them talk about how the decisions they made were all because they were a Christian. I guess that’s going to motivate a little bit what we talk about later. But it was just amazing to think for me, it was just like, well, I know the Bible, but I also know what the what else is going on like. I don’t think that impacts me. And then throughout that week I was like, oh man, like the Lord is revealing to me here my sinfulness. We were in Titus and we had that famous verse about the knowledge of God that teaches us to say no to ungodliness. And I was like, oh, I don’t say no to ungodliness. Like that is not in my life. That is not part of my what I do. So I felt called to repent and to say, God, I want you to be part of my life. And the last 18 years, that’s sort of the life I’ve been living on a slow growth journey, as I’m sure we all feel. That’s how I came to faith.
Adam Curtis:
Oh, that is a beautiful story. Do you remember the year? What year? That would have been that you did that study in Titus?
Jonathon Burrows:
I can yeah, it was 2007. Yes. It was the year that I then proposed to my wife.
Adam Curtis:
Whoa. Okay. Two massive things in one year. Well, I should say yes to the second one as well, but I was saying yes because 2007 was the first time I ever went to this camp Sparkford 2 as a teenager. So I was there in the room.
Jonathon Burrows:
You would have been. Yeah. It was. Yeah, I remember it really well. I remember some of the guys that are from your home church, and they were with us in those Bible studies as well.
Adam Curtis:
Oh, Jonathon, you spoke about in your story how there’s been a slow growth over many years ever since you decided to say yes to accepting Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord. Could you maybe tell us a little bit about how the Lord’s been changing you and maturing you?
Jonathon Burrows:
I think it was a real quick spike of I grew a lot to start with, which was great. And then there was slow growth for a long time, and then there was sort of another spike again when I hit my 30s And I guess the reason it would be because of who I was spending time with and the amount I was reading scripture. For a long time in my early 20s I didn’t, and this is a failure on my part. I didn’t turn to scripture that often. I would on a Sunday. I would occasionally read my Bible, but I wasn’t in there regularly. But then, having grown to realise that scripture is what I need, that is my Lord and Saviour and my father speaking to me, that is perfect. That really helped me to grow and really grapple with things and realise places where I needed to grow in life, but also the people I’m spending time with. Like before we moved to London, we weren’t spending much time with Christians outside of a Sunday because we were stuck in friendship groups. There weren’t many people our age, and I’d got into that false belief of, you have to hang around with people your own age and your own life situation, which I really regret now. We didn’t make enough of our of our church family, which was a wonderful church family. Barton Seagrave it’s been slow growth, but being in God’s Word. Being with God’s people has been massive for Sarah and my wife and myself.
Leah Sax:
If you’re enjoying Delight Podcast, why not consider rating or reviewing us on your listening app of choice? It really does make a massive difference. And if you’re particularly enjoying today’s episode, why not share it on socials? You can also find us at Delight Podcast on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok. Thank you for being a part of the Delight Podcast family.
Leah Sax:
Every season brings with it its own buzzwords, whilst the phrase just follow your heart could easily come from a 1980s rom com, its current iteration, Be True to Yourself appears to be a widely accepted norm. Its variants ‘I’ve just got to protect my own peace’, or ‘if it feels right do it’ permeates our lives. It feels as though other people, with their opinions and traditions and expectations are not to be listened to. Instead, you need to listen to yourself, look within and you will find the answers. Does wisdom come from within?
Jonathon Burrows:
The short answer is no. That’s not what we would believe as Christians. But we’ve got this movement, haven’t we? Where? Follow your heart. Or you only live once. Or you do you. These are all big key phrases, and it’s all about look inside yourself. You’ve got to fulfil yourself like no one else is going to do that for you. And I wonder if we’ve ever thought about the ramifications of how we would treat other people if we truly believed that to the extent it’s all about fulfilling yourself. Scripture doesn’t say that. In fact, the scripture that God has given us, our loving father has given us, tells us that actually, out of man’s heart comes sin and wicked thoughts all the time. That is what we get after the flood. That is where we hear that God regretted the man that he had made. It’s a terrifying truth. And yet it is the reality that our own hearts are deceitful and wicked.
Leah Sax:
So why should we be thinking about the topic of wisdom?
Jonathon Burrows:
I got motivated by thinking about the topic of wisdom because I’m a youth minister, Because I have four young children and everyday decisions happen in split seconds, and the wisdom that we use to make those decisions has got to come from somewhere. We could hold up a mirror to the society around us. We could listen to what our teachers say, or we could listen to what our friends say. But are we as quick to listen to what God says? Something that really strikes me looking at my lovely children, looking at the amazing youth that I get to serve here at Christ Church is, how quick are we to ask, what does it mean for me to make this decision, or to do this thing, or to believe this thing in light of the fact that I am a child of God, saved by the blood of Jesus? And I wonder if actually we want to be more excited about thinking, well, what does it look like to live with wisdom and to live in a way that honours and glorifies God in everyday decisions, whether those are mundane decisions or massive decisions? All of them should, I think, come back to what does God say? You can think of those big decisions in life.
Jonathon Burrows:
I knew as a young person, for example, I shouldn’t be sleeping around, that I shouldn’t be getting drunk. And those decisions seemed really obvious. I knew how to live as a Christian in those situations. But there are so many other decisions, and I think one for me that was really, really slow to come to mind was what do I do with my work? Because I used to work as a tennis coach. I used to love doing tennis coaching, but what it meant was that I worked a lot of weekends, a lot of evenings, a lot of school holidays. And that meant that my children were not getting any of me or not getting enough of me. And when you listen to the Bible, you see that my job as a father is to raise my children, to know the Lord. And if I’m not there, I can’t do that. And I realised that I’d never thought about working life in the Christian perspective or the working hours that I kept. And so I had to make a radical decision there.
Leah Sax:
So when we talk about wisdom, what do we actually mean by that term, we can say, oh, it’s wise or this, but this sounds like a very big concept we’re talking about today.
Jonathon Burrows:
Yeah, I think wisdom is one of those words which we often get in life, I think, where we all think we know what we’re talking about, and we all use it and we’ve all heard it, and we can all probably put it in context. But it’s one of those words. I don’t think we’re so quick to be able to define. I try to define the word wisdom for months as I was preparing this series first time round and I just couldn’t get anywhere, I really couldn’t think what actually is wisdom? And eventually, after a lot of digging around, I landed on this being the definition that I’ve got, which is that wisdom is the application of knowledge, experience and character to living life. So that’s those three things that make up living life. It’s the knowledge that we have, the experiences we have, and our own personal character traits that will give us the wisdom that we live by.
Leah Sax:
Right, You’ve given us a key sentence. Wisdom is the application of knowledge, experience and character to living life. So let’s delve into each of those three things and see what the Bible says. See what we can learn from that. So let’s go with that first one. What does it mean that wisdom is the application of knowledge?
Jonathon Burrows:
If we think about wisdom being how we live our life, how we make decisions, then the knowledge that we have will really influence how we make those decisions. So, for example, say you were going to travel to a different country if you had knowledge that there were trains and that there was this train that even went under the sea to France, you might go, oh, that’s what that’s how I’m going to make that decision. But if you also had the knowledge that aeroplanes exist and that they might be cheaper and faster, you’d go, oh, well, I’ll make that decision. So that’s just a tiny example of the knowledge you have and how it affects your decisions. And as Christians, where do we look for our knowledge? Well, it’s in the Bible, it’s in Scripture. And having a greater knowledge, continuing to be regularly in God’s word is going to give us that knowledge to make decisions which are godly or reflect what God would want us to do and what is best for us. Because God has told us it’s what’s best for us.
Leah Sax:
I’m going to delve straight into the next question, which is what does it mean that wisdom is the application of experience?
Jonathon Burrows:
This is quite a difficult one to explain, but we all have different experiences, and we all have that sort of intuition that in the moment, how do I react here? So Leah, you are a fantastic musician and you have all sorts of experience in that field. But if you plonked me into an orchestra and told me to do something, I wouldn’t have a clue. I’ve got no experience. I would be a fish out of water. I have, I’ve got no experience there. But if you put me on a tennis court where I spent hundreds and thousands of hours of playing tennis, it doesn’t really matter what the situation is. I’d be like, well, I’ve got the experience. I know how to deal with this. I’ve got the wisdom to deal with whatever comes up in that situation. So actually, the gathered experiences we have will have a massive difference in the way that we make decisions and the way that we use wisdom.
Leah Sax:
And then we’ve got that final one. This is incredibly helpful because I can immediately relate to how you’re you’re doing it. It’s like plunk me in a tennis court. And yeah, she wouldn’t do anything.
Adam Curtis:
But can I just say I’d like to see that, I want to see Leah in a tennis court. I want to see Jonathon in an orchestra. I just think we’ve got to start a new YouTube channel. Just watching these things happen.
Leah Sax:
That would be chaotic. Thankfully, wisdom tells me we shouldn’t do that, but we haven’t finished talking about that. So what does that third thing? What does it mean that wisdom is the application of character?
Jonathon Burrows:
Well, we know that we all have different characters. Some people are patient, some people are impatient, some people are busy, some people are lazy. And we can have positive or negative characteristics. But the characteristics you have will influence the wisdom that you have, because you can have all the knowledge and all the experience that you need to make a wise decision. But if you don’t have the character, then you won’t do it and then you won’t be wise. An example of how we use our character to give us wisdom might be. I, for example, am someone who knows that food is a good thing and I know how to eat healthily. I know how to eat things, which will mean that I am able to be a fit and healthy person. I also have the experience of being a very thin person and a very big person. And actually sometimes it’s my character in that one of my character flaws is that I’m sometimes lack self-control in that area and have done in previous parts of my life, and that’s meant that I haven’t lived very wisely when it comes to sort of what I’m eating. And that has meant that I’ve got bigger because I haven’t been able to have the character to say, this isn’t the right thing for me to do right now, even though I had the knowledge and I had the experience to tell me those were the right things. So we need those three things to be working together.
Leah Sax:
What are the biblical foundation for these kind of three pillars of thinking? Because my immediate response when I think of what is wisdom would be the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. What would your biblical underpinning of these three things be?
Jonathon Burrows:
Yeah, so I think there’s loads of Scripture that talks about wisdom, but two key verses I’d love to talk about are Proverbs 1:7, which is “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction”. And then a few chapters later, still in Proverbs, we’ve got Proverbs 9:10, which says, “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding”. So we’re getting this idea. It is God who is the beginning of wisdom. It is a knowledge of him and a fear of him, which is going to help us to live wisely, to gain wisdom, and to grow in wisdom. And that means that if we are not listening to God, we are not fearing him. We’re actually going to be fools. It says that fools despise wisdom and instruction. So those that despise the Lord and despise listening to him. That is foolishness in God’s eyes. That’s what they despise.
Leah Sax:
Those examples in Proverbs are incredible and they sound like unachievable things. Jonathon, how do we get wisdom?
Jonathon Burrows:
Well, wisdom is a thing that we want to be getting. So we want to think about how do we acquire wisdom. And I think there are three things I want to talk about to unravel this a little bit. The first one is we want to prize wisdom. And by prize, I mean make it something special, something that we desperately seek out. Proverbs four says, the beginning of wisdom is this get wisdom, though it cost you all you have. Get understanding. Cherish her and she will exalt you. Embrace her and she will honour you. Getting wisdom is something we’re supposed to care about. In other parts of Scripture, we are told it is more valuable than gold. And we know this in life, right? The things that we care about, the things that we think are great, we go after them. I really cared about being a good father and therefore I worked hard at thinking through what does it mean to be a good father? How can I raise my children to know the Lord? How can I provide for what they need? What is the best lesson to teach them? And I really care about it. So I think about it, I, I meditate on it, I read books about it. I listen to other people who I, who I see as really good examples. And it’s the same with wisdom.
Jonathon Burrows:
If I want to have wisdom, I’ve got to care about it. And I am so lucky that I have a perfect Heavenly Father who loves me so much that he has provided all this wisdom for me. I mean, how great is that that he has written all this for me so that I can learn, and this is in my best interests. And if I dig into the treasure that is in Scripture, I am going to be able to have wisdom. I’m going to be able to grow in wisdom, but I have to care about it. If I don’t care about it, if I don’t prize wisdom, I’m not going to do it. If I don’t care about growing in my knowledge and love of God and what he has to say about how I’ll live my life, then I’m not going to bother. I’m just going to keep my Bible closed and I’ve realised I regret that I for like 6 or 7 years of my initial being a Christian, I didn’t open my Bible that often. I missed out on all that goodness from my Lord, all that wisdom, all the ways he wanted to show me his goodness, his grace, and for my life to have been I missed out. Guys, I hope, I hope the listeners don’t miss out. Like get in your Bible, hear from your Heavenly Father.
Jonathon Burrows:
He wants what’s good for you. And having said that, the second way is to pray for wisdom. It sounds so simple, doesn’t it? But James, one says, if any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. It’s such a simple thing to say, isn’t it? We want to be praying for wisdom. We want to be calling out to the Lord and say, Lord, I don’t understand. Please help me. Please help me to know this. I mean, I’ve going through something at the moment where I don’t understand and I want to understand. So I’m praying to God saying, God, this thing has happened and it’s made a big difference in my heart. I feel like that’s the Holy Spirit telling me to find out more. Please reveal to me how I’m supposed to understand this situation. Please teach me wisdom so that I can react well in this situation and continue to trust in your goodness. Praying is always a good thing. This is a little story about Adam. I remember when Adam was overall leader of spark for two. He came up with some hilarious, pithy rhymes about praying. So these are two. These are my two favourites. The first one was when you’re in the shower, pray to the higher power.
Adam Curtis:
Amen, brother.
Jonathon Burrows:
And I believe he followed that up the next day with while you dress. Don’t forget to intercess.
Leah Sax:
Yes! I remember that.
Jonathon Burrows:
We can pray all the time, and one of the things God tells us to pray for is to pray for wisdom. So let’s be doing that when we are praying.
Leah Sax:
Calling out a host of the podcast with a prior holy comment in a comedic you absolutely win. I feel like
Adam Curtis:
Oh dear, can I think carefully about the things I now say?
Leah Sax:
They’re great.
Leah Sax:
You know what? In God’s goodness, uh, Jonathan remembers those.
Leah Sax:
What’s your third piece of wisdom for our wisdom ascertaion, for our wisdom ascertaining. That’s the word.
Jonathon Burrows:
Well, this is the one where I’m kind of cheating because I’m saying that as an umbrella, it’s pursue wisdom. So when you pry something, if you don’t actually pursue it, you’re never going to attain it, are you? Never going to get it? So we prize it, we pray for it. But then we’ve actually got to actively ourselves do something about pursuing it. Yeah. And while I say that there were three things I’m going to break pursuing wisdom down into five things.
Leah Sax:
Yes.
Adam Curtis:
Come on.
Jonathon Burrows:
Oh, dear Adam. You two are proper hypers, I love it. The first one is that we want to pursue wisdom in the Word of God. So very simple. Psalm 19. You can get this sort of quote throughout scripture, but the law of the Lord is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple. First and foremost, the way that God, the Father and Creator of all, has chosen to communicate with us, his people, is through Scripture. So if I want to get wisdom from him, I want to pursue that wisdom. I need to open my Bible and find it. I’ve already spoken about this, but God has not left us without any communication. He’s not left us without ways of knowing him and growing in wisdom. So let’s open our Bibles and pursue wisdom in the Word of God. Now the second one is a bit of a weird one, and I wouldn’t know about this if it wasn’t for listening to a John Piper lecture. But this is Proverbs six, and it’s probably not. When we hear many sermons on which is go to the ant, you sluggard, consider its ways and be wise. And you think that’s weird? What do you mean, I have to I have to go and look at ants and learn from them. That’s a bit weird, but that is where God is saying to us, the world around you, which I have created, has wisdom.
Jonathon Burrows:
Go and look at the world around you. Look at the things I have created and put before you, and you will gain wisdom from that. I’m guessing that would fall more into that bracket of experience. Sort of. You go and look at nature and you’ll say, oh, that’s that’s an interesting concept. And we can see throughout all of human history how people have gone and looked at creation and how that has developed into different things over time, the ways that we use metal now, for example, that’s come from exploring nature, going and studying it. And now we have these amazing, massive buildings because of the ways that people have gained wisdom from looking at the world around them. We want to pursue wisdom in the Word of God and in the world of God. Now, this one’s been another key one for me. I talked about it earlier, but the third way we might pursue wisdom is Proverbs 13. Walk with the wise and become wise, for a companion of fools suffers harm. We want to walk with the wise. We are incredibly blessed in our culture that we, and by our Lord that we have been put into church families, that we are one body, and that there are always Christians around us who can show us, who can lead us, who will show their wisdom and share it with us.
Jonathon Burrows:
I’ve been so blessed in my life by certain people who have shown me wisdom in the way they lived. The two guys who were my dorm leaders when I became a Christian. They’re definitely on the list as people who were wise and showed me wisdom. A guy called Andy Clark, he was my associate vicar at my previous church in Barton Seagrave. He gave me so much time. He allowed me to walk with him as a younger Christian, and he showed me wisdom in the way that he made decisions in the the characteristics. He showed that he was patient. He didn’t seek after revenge when people let him down. He didn’t. He was humble when things weren’t always easy. And I’m incredibly, incredibly thankful that God gave me him as an example. And I’m sure that anyone listening to this now can think of people in their life who have walked alongside them, who they can walk alongside. And I really want to encourage anyone listening to this to work hard at that, at finding people you can walk alongside, have them around for dinner, go on holiday with them, do events with them, make the most of the Christian fellowship that we have been given by our loving father. So pursue wisdom in the Word of God, the Word of God. Walking with wise teachers. Can you tell used to be a teacher? Going over it over and over again.
Leah Sax:
Wonderful.
Jonathon Burrows:
The fourth one is pursuing wisdom in the light of eternity, in the light of our current human condition. We’ve been wrestling with this in our youth group recently. And this quote from Ecclesiastes. This is chapter seven, verses two and four. It is better to go to a house of mourning than to go to a house of feasting. For death is the destiny of everyone. The living should take this to heart. The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning. But the heart of fools is in the heart of pleasure. I mean, you go back to our opening question and all about fulfilment, all about partying, all about live it up. Now. Come on, make the most of it. I mean, that is not what that’s saying. Ecclesiastes tells us. Look at that coffin. That coffin is going to teach you way more than that crib or that party. And that’s an amazing thing to think, okay, I am finite. I am not going to live forever. I am a human being and therefore I can guarantee that I will die. But if I turn to the Lord and I understand, I know that I’m living in light of eternity. So I want to live my life now, preparing myself for that life with the Lord forever, which I can already enjoy now as well, through the gift of the Holy Spirit And that is an amazing gift.
Jonathon Burrows:
And if I’m living thinking with an eternity mindset, I’m going to make such different decisions. I’m going to seek wisdom in such different ways. It’s a it’s a wonderful instruction from Scripture to learn from the fact that we are going to die, that we have eternity in mind. We want to try and look at, well, we’ve got the joy of heaven and the fear of hell. Those are two very real things, and we’ve got so much wisdom we can gain from both those things. And then finally, I won’t recount them all this time. But we want to we want to pursue wisdom in relation to Jesus, in knowing who Jesus is. So Colossians 2 says, my goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Christ is the ultimate source of wisdom, and we have four books of the Bible full of testimonies about his life, about what he taught us, and he has been revealed to us.
Jonathon Burrows:
We can find wisdom by looking at Jesus when his enemies were horrible to him. He didn’t fight back. He turned the other cheek. He taught us to love God and to love our neighbour. He has revealed that wisdom to us and as I’ve tried to live that way, I can see how much more at peace I am, how much more fulfilled I am. Knowing where I’m going, knowing what is certain in my life already. There is nothing I can add to my life. That’s because of Jesus. Looking at what he’s done, my life is amazing. Things could go horribly wrong in lots of ways on this earth, but they can’t in eternity. They can’t because Jesus is real and because he is going to take me with him and and call me home. That is a truth that can’t change. That is the wisdom we want to be seeking. And then if we know those truths, if those are deeply rooted in our heart, that we are saved by Jesus, that we are living for eternity. That can massively impact how we seek out wisdom and live our lives now, and the things that we believe and do in light of what Jesus has done for us.
Adam Curtis:
Jonathon, that is so beautiful and so helpful. And I just love that big up of Jesus at the end there, because Amen like our culture tells us. Go figure this out by yourself. Follow your own thoughts and feelings and actually, well, no, no, I actually want to figure this out with the one who has figured it out. I want to figure this out with the one who actually knows all things and understands all things. Oh, such a beautiful image of Jesus there at the end. Amen. Hallelujah!
Leah Sax:
There’s such a richness to the picture that you’ve painted. Jonathon, thank you for your. I’m going to use the word wisdom. It sounds trite in saying it in that sentence, but I mean it because we got to see who Jesus is and how that permeates every single part of our lives. And it just gives me I feel refreshed, refreshed. He refreshes our soul and I feel that he has used you to do that. We talk about these beautiful things of going to the Lord, of being in the word, walking with the wise. Let’s get some real practical examples. How do I know whether or not to take the job that has been offering, or whether I stay in the job, or go to a new job? What would you say to that?
Jonathon Burrows:
There’s so many things you want to draw on there. You want to say, how am I going to honour Christ? How am I going to honour the Lord by doing that? What does it mean for me as a Christian to take a new job? Well, first of all, where does it mean I’m going to live? Is that job going to mean I have to do anything that God tells me not to do? I mean, there’s some really big stories in the news at the moment about Christians who’ve people who’ve declared themselves Christians very publicly but don’t want to live a Christian life. So is that job going to be a way that I can honour the Lord? Is the place I’m going to have to move to be going to be a place that I can honour the Lord. Is there a good church for me? Am I going to be able to show hospitality in the place that I live? Because I can afford to do that? Am I going to be encouraged by people there? There’s so many small decisions in life. There’s so many big decisions in life, and there’s so many questions that I can’t possibly answer them all. But it’s coming back to what does it look like to make this decision in the fear of the Lord?
Adam Curtis:
And this is quite helpful to think through that, actually. Sometimes there’s black and white answers and sometimes there’s grey answers to these questions. And as Christians, we can sometimes just long for any black and white, but actually often there’s a lot of grey. And within that then if there are grey answers, well, okay, how can I lift it up to the Lord and ask for his leading? Like, what wisdom can I gain from more mature men and women in Christ who can help me think that through?
Jonathon Burrows:
You’re so right. There are loads of decisions in our life which are black and white. God is really clear and says, this is what you do. This is what you don’t do. This is what you believe. This is what you don’t believe. But there are so many things in there in the world that are grey. And this is a term that my vicar John here uses all the time and says there are things which we can’t know for sure. And sometimes it’s, it’s about wrestling with that, bringing that to the Lord, but also accepting that there are many things where we as Christians will come to different answers, where we will disagree. And I think we are given the freedom in Scripture to do that. Certain things. We are not given the freedom to disagree on certain things. We really I think we are given the freedom to observe our conscience, as long as we’re not doing that for any potentially negative reasons or for reasons that would disregard what God has taught us. But for example, big ones in church who should get baptised? Should it be babies? Should it be adults? There is grey there. But we want to say, well, what does the Lord taught me? How can I wrestle with that? Well, by praying, asking for wisdom, I can turn to Scripture. I can speak to wise people on both sides of that and hear what they say. And there’s all sorts of things that we can do. And I guess it’s about having that. That root is right. I’ve got this decision, I’ve got this question, I’ve got this challenge. What am I going to do? How am I going to seek to find a way to answer that? It’s going to be pursuing that wisdom again.
Leah Sax:
We’ve talked about wisdom in the big decisions, say, getting a new job or decisions that we’ve probably come across in church scenarios. I really loved very the very beginning. You were making a comment about, um, the everyday decisions you make with your children. And I just wonder, this is just an experience question, because I’ve just been talking with some of my mum friends recently about how do you gain the wisdom to make those loving decisions in the split seconds, because those are. That’s also wisdom in the tiny daily split seconds. Whether you’re a parent with a child, whether you’re on the phone with somebody who’s frustrating you with customer service. How do we gain wisdom in the everyday when we haven’t got the time to meditate on a big decision?
Jonathon Burrows:
That’s that’s so hard because parenting is one of those things which there isn’t much there’s not much of a handbook, and it’s really, really hard. And I once heard someone describe parenting as, uh, as being trained in shame and guilt, which. It’s really scary. But I guess the only way you can make those split second decisions is by having prepared yourself for them. In a sense of I want to honour the Lord. Right? That’s my first motivation. I’ve read up on this, I know this. There will be things I haven’t thought about at all, and it’s right. How do I honour the Lord right now, where my child is causing a scene in a public place? Or when my child says, dad, can I go swimming tonight? And you think, oh, is that the right thing? And you have to make split second decisions. Sometimes you got a bit more time to think about it. You can take a breath, pray about it. But sometimes you’ve just got to have been preparing yourself by knowing your Scripture, knowing your Lord, and also being ready to say I was wrong. That is quite a big part of parenting. As me saying to my children, sorry guys, I messed up. And being able to model that as well. And that happens all the time in the borough’s household, believe it or not.
Leah Sax:
Bless you as an encouragement to you. I love seeing you in Sarah. Parent your children. I always, whenever I’m in your household, I’m like, I feel the joy. I see the love of Jesus. And I’m not saying you’re perfect, Jonathan, because I’ve known you for 15 years and you have known me for 15 years. You know, I’m a broken woman, but Jesus is at work, and I love being in your household, so we should keep just be in the word because that affects. And those five, those five pursuing, they affect everything, don’t they? Not just the big decisions. Should we expect to see others living a wise life?
Jonathon Burrows:
We’re going to have to break that down into who are we talking about? We should expect to see Christian wise lives in our fellow Christian brothers and sisters. When I went with my life group, when I with my church family, when I’m at prayer meetings, when I’m doing camp, we want to be encouraging one another to live wisely. That is what the Bible tells us to do. And yet, if we’re talking about the world around us, non-believers, that is going to be so, so different. And this might be a massive shock to people. The world around you thinks you’re a fool. They genuinely think you’re a fool. You’re stupid. You’re a moron. I have come from a non-Christian family, and the thought that I am going to stop working for two years to potentially go and do some theological training to them, is utter foolishness. They think that is the most ridiculous thing. Let me give you a couple of Bible quotes which help us understand this. This is from 1 Corinthians 3. Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become fools, so that you may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written, he catches the wise in their craftiness.
Jonathon Burrows:
And again, the Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile. And then chapter four says, we are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ. So we need to acknowledge that the world around us thinks we’re fools. It’s madness that you give away some of your money to your church. You don’t need to do that. That’s like an extra tax. Why do you do that? That’s complete madness. Oh, you. You don’t believe in having lots of relationships before marriage or living together before marriage. How will you know you’re compatible? The world around us has its own wisdom. There are lots that the world around us wants to believe and wants us to believe. They really want us to believe it. God is the only judge. God is the one who knows what is wise, what is good, what is correct. When we live our lives, we’re living for an audience of one. We want to say, what will my Lord make of this? Not what will the friends around me. And there are certain environments where that’s really hard. At my sports clubs over the years, that’s been really hard to be a Christian witness as the only Christian there.
Jonathon Burrows:
And they’re mocking me. Oh, you won’t come out drinking. You won’t, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Well, no I won’t, you won’t play a tennis match on Sunday. No I won’t. But actually that verse again, I’ll read it again. We are fools for Christ. But you are so wise in Christ. We can be happy, joyful, fulfilled fools, because we are fools in the eyes of the world, but in Christ’s eyes we are living for him. We are glorifying him. He is the one who has made us white as snow before the father. That is who we want to be impressing. And if the world calls us fools, revel in it. I think that’s a real joy in acts five, when we hear the apostles have been abused by the people around them and have been mistreated, they celebrate because they have been counted worthy of suffering for the gospel. Wouldn’t that be amazing? If people know that we are witnessing for the Lord that much, and living for him alone, that they call us out on it? That’s a great witness to people and that’s that’s ultimately what we’re called to do. That is the ultimate wisdom that we have there to live for Jesus and let others know that that’s what we’re doing.
Leah Sax:
If people were thinking. I would love to do some more reading on this. Are there any other resources that you would recommend, or some further reading where people could just just meditate on what wisdom is a bit more?
Jonathon Burrows:
Well, no, not really, because I really wish they were. Because when I gave myself this topic, I fully threw myself into this. I thought, there’ll be loads of books on the topic of wisdom. There really aren’t that many books out there. There are lots of good articles online. I’ve really enjoyed some of John Piper’s teaching on this. There are some good books on some of the topics I’ve touched on, so finding the Right Hills to Die On is a really good book for thinking about. How do we make decisions as Christian, what’s important, what’s not. That’s I think that’s why Gavin Ortlund that’s a really good book, but it’s your scripture. If you want to grow in wisdom, your Bible is the book to turn to. That’s where you’re going to be most, uh, served.
Leah Sax:
Apart from the fact of having a joy of a brother I’ve known for over 15 years on the podcast who was able to preach your own words back at you and mock you simultaneously, which was a joy. One phrase that really stuck with me was dig into the treasure of God’s Word. Just that visual and that richness of going to the word, going to Jesus, the one who is wisdom in every part is something we say every week and yet never fails to refresh my soul.
Adam Curtis:
Oh, tell me about it. There’s so much I enjoyed in that episode. I enjoyed the fact that he mocked me. I think I just enjoyed an old friendship and being able to interview a friend, and I enjoyed just how rich it was in scripture and truth. That big vision of Jesus he gave us as we’re seeking wisdom, like we are walking with the one who is wise and the one who understands all things and knows all things, and is the source of all things. And that is just the best place to be as we try to live this life.
Leah Sax:
Before we stop our podcast. We always ask a bonus question. Jonathon Burrows.
Jonathon Burrows:
Oh, dear.
Leah Sax:
Our season seven bonus question is, can you tell us about a person God has used to shape your faith?
Jonathon Burrows:
Well, I feel like I’ve already mentioned people who have shaped my faith, so maybe I’ve already answered this, but, I mean Jesus would be the most obvious answer.
Leah Sax:
Correct! Well done.
Jonathon Burrows:
But someone I will mention that really helped me just with a one off comment. And they probably don’t realise how much this made was a guy who you’ve had on your podcast. See, I’m being a proper fanboy. Uh, was um.
Adam Curtis:
Can we guess, can we guess? Is it Andy Rees?
Jonathon Burrows:
It’s not Andy Rees I didn’t know you’d had Andy Rees on it. It’s actually Mike Brooks.
Leah Sax:
From our worship episode.
Adam Curtis:
Yes. Of course.
Jonathon Burrows:
Well, yeah. When I was on camp with Mike, I remember he was sort of doing a 1 to 1 with me. I was a task force. He was a leader, and I remember him just sort of taking me aside and talking to me and saying, so why? Why won’t you submit to authority? And I was like, oh, like this.
Adam Curtis:
Booom! Say that’s a slam!
Jonathon Burrows:
Can I just sayThat wasn’t that wasn’t how he started the conversation.
Jonathon Burrows:
Uh, but essentially he’d noticed that throughout the week, if I didn’t like what the person in authority was saying, I’d just kind of ignore it. And for me, I was like, that’s. I had. No one had ever said that to me. No one had felt the ability to correct or rebuke me on that. And I was like, wow, yeah, I’ve got to submit. I’ve like, God tells me to submit. Scripture tells me to submit. That’s clearly there. So Mike said that to me, and I don’t think I ever saw him again after that. Um, but I remember very distinctly him saying that to me and thinking, yeah, this is a really good life lesson. If you want to honour the Lord, you have to honour those he has told you to submit to. And so he was really helpful to me. But I mean, Andy, who I mentioned earlier, he has helped me in so many ways over the years. The thing that amazed me after we finished youth group, which was sort of 10:00 on a Thursday night, I would often have lots of big annoying questions as youth team members sometimes do. And I would keep him there, and sometimes we’d be there till like one in the morning, just stood in the carpark having chats about this, that and everything and the willingness for him to give me that time. It’s just been amazing. And I really hope I can use that in my future ministry, my ministry here and whatever I might go on to next. But yeah, Andy Clarke has got to be my number one influence, if I’m honest.
Leah Sax:
Oh, Jonathon Burrows, thank you so much for being a guest and fanboy of Delight Podcast.
Jonathon Burrows:
I might, should I tell you my favourite episode?
Leah Sax:
Oh my goodness.
Adam Curtis:
Oh, do. Tell us.
Jonathon Burrows:
I mean, it’s been a while ago and I apologise for any emotion it brings up, but the one with Leah’s dad hearing him talk about forgiveness. I was just amazing that. I mean, that is a challenging thing, isn’t it? And I to forgive people who who have done such evil or horrible things towards you. And that was just amazing. I felt so encouraged by that. So thank you for recording it.
Leah Sax:
Thank you so much again to Jonathon Burrows for being our guest on episode 34 of Delight Podcast. Next week we have the wonderful Matt Searles joining us for I kid you not, in approximately 45 minutes, an entire Bible overview. We are aiming high. This is Adam and Leah delightfully signing off. Bye bye.
Adam Curtis:
Goodbye.
Leah Sax:
You’re a natural at this, Jonathon. I just need you to know that. Because I don’t think you think that. It’s almost like the Lord’s prepared you to teach the word and to speak, and he’s given you a gift. Who knew?
Adam Curtis:
I know that is a great question. Who did know?
Leah Sax:
That young Jonathon that we all knew and loved
Adam Curtis:
Jonathon, I think it’s a it’s a testament of God’s grace that I remember the young Jonathon.
Jonathon Burrows:
It’s a fascinating thing, like speaking to old church family, people who knew me in times gone by. And they’re like, how are you a Christian? I remember meeting with a guy called a guy called Gwilym Davies, who is one of the Cornhill teachers, and him him sort of going, you are like the last person I thought was going to be Christian. It’s amazing how God works. And he does work.
Adam Curtis:
Did you know Gwilym before Corn Hill?
Jonathon Burrows:
Yeah. It was Gwilym who, uh, asked me not to return to the youth group.
Adam Curtis:
No way. Okay. Oh, well, that must be great encouragement to him, then.
Jonathon Burrows:
It was very weird. Well, we first met on an online summer school thing, and he noticed I was in the thing, like the zoom meeting. I have 120 odd people and then pinged me like one of those private chats you can do on zoom and was like, we need to talk in the break. And so then we did. But like 30 people hadn’t left the conversation, like seven had gone off on their break, but 30 people were still there. And then we had this really awkward heart to heart.
Adam Curtis:
It was amazing.
Jonathon Burrows:
But it was. Hello, everyone. This is Gwilym and I. We have a history and you’re all getting to discover it.
Leah Sax:
This is God Works.
Leah Sax:
I love that, that’s I love that.
Jonathon Burrows:
I need humbling.
Adam Curtis:
Don’t we all, Jonathan? Don’t we all?
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