TRANSCRIPT Episode 4: Church – life with God’s Family

Leah Sax:
Hello and welcome to Delight Podcast, I’m Leah Sax, and this is Adam Curtis.

Adam Curtis:
Hello. Hello.

Leah Sax:
And today we welcome Andy and Grace Rees, who both serve at Surrey Chapel in Norwich, where Andy is lead Pastor. Grace describes herself as a full time pastor’s wife and mum. Today, our topic turns to church and we’ll mostly be chatting about what that looks like on a Sunday.

Adam Curtis:
Hello and welcome to our guests today, Andy and Grace Rees.

Grace Rees:
Hello,

Andy Rees:
Hello. Sorry! At what point was I supposed to talk?

Adam Curtis:
So let’s do that again and both of you say hello.

Grace Rees:
Ok, OK.

Adam Curtis:
Hello and welcome to our guest today, Andy and Grace Rees

Grace Rees:
Hello.

Andy Rees:
Hello.

Andy Rees:
Hello.

Adam Curtis:
Is so good to have both of you here on the Delight Podcast. And we’re going to hear a little bit about your story and your journey with Christ in a moment. Grace, could you just tell us a little bit About both of you?

Grace Rees:
We live in Norwich. We’ve been married for about 10 years, maybe 11 now. And we have three kids. They are nine, six and four. We’ve only been in Norwich for coming up to two years. So not that long. Before that we were in Worcester and then a lot of other places to

Adam Curtis:
Travelling the world. Well, travelling the U.K. It would be great to hear about your story and how you guys came to know Jesus Christ. Andy why don’t we start with you. How did you come to know Jesus?

Andy Rees:
Well, I was brought up in a Christian family in Cardiff, in Wales. I’m a Welshman, It’s a magnificent innit?. But mum and dad, I won’t carry on with the Welsh accent. Mum and dad grew up serving Jesus knowing him. Teaching me the gospel. And I think it’s probably a young age. There’s a moment where I asked Jesus into my heart, as it were. But I guess as I look back, probably there wasn’t a day… you know I was brought up to know Jesus, my Lord Saviour. I guess probably secondary school particularly in sixth form was where the rubber really did hit the road for me. And the question for me is, am I going to keep following and serving Jesus where everyone else seems to be doing stuff that I know I shouldn’t do as a Christian. And actually following Jesus in sixth form came with a cost to it. It came with the cost because you were excluded because of following Christ and not being willing to do what everyone else did. I guess that was the point. I was like, is this true? Can I really trust it? God in his kindness used that time to help show me that, actually, I can believe that the New Testament documents, the evidence for Jesus resurrection was overwhelming. And actually my experiences of knowing Jesus having forgiven my sins.

Adam Curtis:
So six form years you felt the pressure between what your friends were doing or wanting to do. You made this decision okay I’m going to follow Jesus. What was the process during that time?

Andy Rees:
You know, it was an emotional roller coaster, really thinking about that. Both my older brothers, sort of the youngest by a long way. You could describe me as an afterthought.

Adam Curtis:
haaa!!

Grace Rees:
Not unwanted, just unplanned

Leah Sax:
Still loved and cherished, a child of God

Grace Rees:
Yes!

Andy Rees:
So I’ve got brother who’s ten years older, a brother who is 12 years older than me, but actually both of them are kind of keen Christians. Do you know what I spoke a lot to my brother Steve during this time. And just, you know, I can see they were ten years further on than me. Do you know his counsel he opened up the bible with me, also just being part of the church family where you could see older people who were convinced and persuaded. This is true. This is worth giving your whole life to Christian community, family who are Christian. Most of my friends, my contemporaries who were Christian at that time were pretty rubbish. They were not that much of an encouragement, actually. It was older Christians, lots of them were just were just caving in. I was going for it at school. Were you involved in the Christian Union when you’re in sixth form?

Adam Curtis:
Embarrassingly, when I was at school, my sister used to run the Christian union and when I saw her handing out flyers in the corridor, I would walk the other way,

Grace Rees:
Love it!

Adam Curtis:
I was that discouragement.

Andy Rees:
That’s classic. But so so I really went for it with the Christian union and we used to do loads of stuff and I used to be quite out there in terms of living for Christ. I remember there was one post that we put up during a mission week and I remember being sat in the sixth form common room. So I remember one kid in front of about 200 people sat in the room taking the poster, ripping in front of a front of my face, throwing it at me and spitting at me and saying, what you stand for is disgusting. You know, those moments that you’re thinking, OK, is this a path I want to keep going down?

Adam Curtis:
We’ll hear more about your story in a moment. But let’s let’s turn to Grace. Grace, how did you how did you come to know Jesus?

Grace Rees:
I did grow up in a Christian family. I knew the gospel from from an early age. We were in a very healthy church, which had really faithful kids and youth were. So I had a couple of really good, it was a little group of girls four of us, grew up together. But for me school I was not, I was known as a nice girl who was popular, didn’t really have any enemies. But, you know, I don’t think anyone would have said, oh, she’s the Christian. And they might have said, oh, we know she goes to church. But I wasn’t like Reesy at school at all. After school, I think I started to question as a teenager, like, did I really believe this? I’ve always been told it. This is what I’ve grown up with I’ve always gone to church. People are lovely, all of that. But is it actually really, you know, do I believe it for myself? I was a bit obnoxious and stubborn probably, so I decided to take, I was like I’m going to take a level theology and prove it’s all wrong, as you do. But obviously, I did not prove it all wrong. And if anything, it was just like what these people say, what? That’s a load of rubbish like that just does not hold up to what the Bible says. So that was really helpful. And then I never knew what I wanted to do. I had you know, I wasn’t particularly good at anything. So I was a bit like, oh, I’m a bit lost teenager.

Grace Rees:
I know. I’ll just go and live abroad for a while. I went to Norway it’s a bit random.

Andy Rees:
For a year.

Grace Rees:
For a year Great place. Who loved it?

Adam Curtis:
Oh cool!

Yeah, it was really cool. But it was the first time, I suppose, that I’d not been littler rock star. And I was like, oh my goodness, no one here knows anything about me. And, you know, they don’t even speak my language. I mean, I can be and do whatever I like. At that point, you’ve got a choice to make about how you’re going to live. That was quite significant. And for that entire year, I wasn’t at church. But actually I would say that probably was the year that started to shape me the most. I had to make the decision of whether I thought it to be true myself and I had to live it myself. And I could I could have done what I liked, you know, in terms of lifestyle. But actually making that decision and wonderfully, the Lord provided another girl who was really going for it, a Norwegian. I mean, we barely could understand each other a lot of the time. But, you know, she was just she was going for it. She taught me how to say the Lord’s Prayer in Norwegian, you know, and, you know, it was just really helpful. During that year, I also went to China and visited the Chinese church. I mean, goodness knows what kind of Chinese church it was.

Grace Rees:
I have no idea. But they did send a hymn with a tune I recognised. And I was like, oh, my goodness, this is… And I’d also been to Mexico and seen Christians there. And I was like, this is worldwide. There is something about that that actually it does make you. Yeah, there is something in this, to see this in all these different cultures. I was applying to uni from Norway because I already had my grades and stuff that was very straightforward. And my mum called up and said, of course you’ve got 48 hours. If you want to apply to Oxbridge, you need to make a decision and do it. So I was like, oh, all right. So we had this like manic like, writing my personal statement over the phone kind of thing. And then I was like, right, done. And she’s like, no, you’ve got to choose a college. So you can’t apply to Cambridge without choosing the college that you’re going to apply to. All right. I’ll go online. Well, I’m just not very good at research. Oh. Which ones do history of art, fine. Write them all on a piece of paper, stick them in a hat and pull one out and that’ll do so. Yeah. So that’s what I did. Wrote them all on a piece of paper. Now one one college is called Jesus College, so I just written Jesus on a piece of paper, chucks it in and it was like a reference.

Grace Rees:
I cannot believe you are deciding all these Norwegian’s, you just think, you know, Oxford and Cambridge are like this massive deal and they’re like what you’re applying and you just going to pull it out of a hat. I was like, yes, it was a bit of a thing. So we were all stood around this had and I said, All right, this is my life. They said then it feels at that point where you choose to go to uni is like quite a big deal. And and it’s like this is what I’m going for and this is how, you know, and I’ve seen people go to Cambridge before. So it felt more like a lifestyle decision as well to say this is what I’m going to do, etc. And they were like, come on, are you going to pick out OK, this is what my life is going to be. Let’s go pulled it out. And it was Jesus College, so just said Jesus. And for me that was I actually that was just such a pivotal moment because I didn’t pull it out and think Jesus college. I just saw Jesus and thought, yeah, that is what my life is going to be. And it doesn’t matter where I go. Actually, that’s what it’s going to be. I got a place, but I made a decision not to go there in the end and I went to Edinburgh. Having not visited that either. Best decision I’ve ever made

Andy Rees:
After marrying me. Best decision you’ve made After marrying me, After or Jesus, Then marring me, then going to Edinburgh.

Adam Curtis:
Ok, so you guys have known since 2007, been married for eleven years. It’s been a lot of that time serving little Jesus together. Over this time How have you guys you have been spiritually growing.

Grace Rees:
I think we’ve both grown and we’ve both had kind of input and training and certain things and Bible handling Bible study. We’ve grown because we’ve served in various different contexts alongside various different people that has pushed us on or challenged us in different ways. And then just life happens. And I think the biggest growth often is just through when things go well or things go wrong in life. And we’ve been pushed and tested. And also I just think we’ve grown through some of the the amazing relationships that we’ve had with other Christians of varying ages stages.

Andy Rees:
That is brilliant. What you say about circumstances when things go well, But actually when things go wrong. You know, suffering in life, which is common, we haven’t suffered loads and loads. There’s been a few different things that have happened that push you to trust Jesus in new ways, that give you a new and fresh longing for heaven that you maybe wouldn’t have had without those, because you realise this is not the perfect world and it is not straightforward things do go wrong. That has been significant hasn’t it Grace?

Grace Rees:
Yeah, I think so. But it’s not just longing for heaven. It actually makes the theory go into practise. All of a sudden I know God uses things for all good. You know, I can roll off a lot of biblical truth, but it’s only when you’re actually having to apply it and see it and wrestle with it in real life, that then it becomes, you’re practising these truths that you that you believe, but you’re actually living through it and dealing with the emotion of that and feeling angry about this. And, you know, I suppose you’re living the more coloured reality of applying what you’ve been taught over the years and what you’ve read through scripture over the years. Suddenly it has a depth in a situation because you’ve got to either hold onto it or you’ve got to accept that it’s true even if you don’t like it.

Adam Curtis:
And as you look back through the experiences, the highs, the lows the good the bad other particular things which God has been teaching you,

Grace Rees:
Reesy?

Andy Rees:
Go on Grace, you’re doing so well, Grace.

Grace Rees:
Oh, you always make me go first.

Adam Curtis:
He wants time to think!!!

Grace Rees:
This is like push it on her. She can say all the stuff and then I’ll say the really, like, clarified thing at the end.

Andy Rees:
Although I think the opposite, when you come out with stuff, Grace, it comes out very clearly needs a bit more of a Bojangled mess.

Grace Rees:
I think God taught us that he is always good no matter what. I think he’s taught us that actually he can provide and will provide and and importantly, he will always provide in the way that is best for you, even whether you don’t like it or not. And he’s tall and he’s taught us that it’s OK not to like it and to find it really hard and also to be angry and upset and like this is not what I planned. But actually he’s taught us that that’s OK. It’s where you land and where you’re resting at the end of that as you walk through that, that actually you can still say, you know what, that is still God’s will for me and that is still good. We’ve always seen glimpses throughout of all the hard things that have happened. There’s always been something that you can say, do you know what the Lord so kind in that something, even though there was all the other stuff I didn’t like, actually I can see some of the good that’s come out of it. And I think he’s also taught us that he is, he is faithful to his words and we can trust his word. And actually, the thing that if you keep keep coming back to God’s word, keep reading it and keep processing it and looking at it and studying it and delving into it, it does help you to strengthen the spirit, just work through it to keep you going. And it is his word where that where that all comes from. It’s not kind of how I feel about something.

Andy Rees:
That’s great. One of the things that Grace is very good at is when she has the time to go to Starbucks and get away from the kids, the lovely, beautiful kids. When she gets to do that, she’s very good at sort of journaling sometimes and just writing down her, just thinking through what’s been going on and applying God’s word to it. That’s one of the things that I love about her. And I love learning from her. You know, she’s very good at reflecting that stuff. And so I would agree with all of that. I wouldn’t necessarily add to that. Is there is a specific scenario, Grace, that you would go, you know, actually, this this thing did happen

Grace Rees:
At any point. So you you have children. That is a massive life change that no one nothing can slightly prepare you for. And when we had our first child, it wasn’t straightforward for me personally. It’s not a happy time. And you wrestle with the, this is what my…With anything, this is what your expectation is of something you’ll have an expectation in any situation you’re going into, whether it be moving or getting married or even just on a simple hooking up with friends. Like we’ll have an expectation. Oh I haven’t seen this person is going to be wonderful. I’m going to feel great afterwards. And sometimes it just doesn’t meet up to expectation and something is different. And actually a lot of the times of kind of being able to say, actually Lord I need to learn to trust you with what my expectation is and what is actually going to happen. And when they don’t match up and whatever emotion comes with that, it’s OK to feel the pain of it and to grieve the mourn the loss of the expectation of what I thought was going to be, but also that actually I can turn that and look to you within it and see your goodness and grace within the new situation. At each stage, God has given us so much goodness in the stuff that we’ve struggled with, whether that just be a friend who’s been given to help us through that situation or whatever is down to very little practical things. God has always provided something that we’ve able to say Wow, we needed that. And you’ve given it. And it might have been the answer we wanted, but actually you’ve given us what can sustain us through.

Andy Rees:
That’s Gold Grace.

Adam Curtis:
It is one of the benefits of journalling isn’t it. I I’ve journelled over the years and oh,

Grace Rees:
You do read them back?!!!.

Adam Curtis:
I do read them back.

Grace Rees:
Oh, no, no. Do you not cringe when you read it back, though Adam? I just not make it at all.

Adam Curtis:
So I do cringe. So I have different journals.

Grace Rees:
I love this, you are organised!

Adam Curtis:
Different journals with different moods I’m in and I have an anger journal

Leah Sax:
You have an anger journal?

Grace Rees:
Was that just a lot of like I HATE THIS?

Adam Curtis:
That’s not far from it.

Grace Rees:
I love that. Are they different? Colour coded, you know, like is the red one, the anger one and then the yellow one, like the smiley happy one,

Adam Curtis:
The anger one, well the emotion or the sadness one as well on every page is a different wall. The idea is that you’re graffitiing on the wall. Anyway this is completely…let me…

Grace Rees:
You need to do a whole podcast on journaling.

Adam Curtis:
Ok, we might have to, you know,

Leah Sax:
You’re Like speaking to his joy because he loves it

Adam Curtis:
One of the benefits I find from journaling and looking back on these times, and particularly because I journal a lot of my prayers. It allows me to see how those prayers have been answered. And in the midst of the midst of the bad times, the dark times misses the times. I feel like I’m at the bottom of the pit. In that moment, I couldn’t necessarily say how I can feel that God is good. But when I look back on these times and see how God was with me in those times, how he took me out of that pit, how he’s blessed me in that times have blessed me since that time, I’m going, Oh yeah. And God is really good. But it’s only through reflecting and looking back that I can actually piece that together.

Leah Sax:
Grace and Andy, thank you so much for sharing with us your story and what you’ve learnt, of God’s, character. I guess today’s topic that we’re looking at is church. For a lot of people listening, they perhaps have just become a believer, just seen who Jesus is. Why do we need church? We can be a Christian on our own. Is that a fair point or is that not a fair point? Let’s direct that at Reesy.

Andy Rees:
It’s a good question. And it’s an issue, I guess lots of people come across because often their perception of what church is is being directed by the Vicar of Dibley or or Mr Bean. I mean, that really dates me. Both those things date me. I’m aware of that. But actually they have a total misconception of what church is. But I guess the thing I’d want to say is when you become a Christian, what is God saving you for? What is the big picture of the Bible? What is salvation about? I guess I’ll probably summarise it is that God is saving a people for himself through Jesus for his glory. Now, that’s kind of what God is doing through the big plot line of the Bible. He’s not saving a person, but a people for himself. So when I become a Christian, actually, what does he what does he want for me? He is saving me to be part of a people. So where is all human history going? It’s going towards the church, actually. That is what is going to be like in heaven. God’s people united around the throne, worshipping the saviour, living for him in relationship with each other. It is the big plotline of the Bible is what our hearts long for. So if that person is there thinking, well, why do I need the church, I kind of want to say that is what God has, God has saved you people to be part of that final day. And what is church now? It’s a little outpost of what that final day will be like. It’s belonging to a people who encourage each other to get to that final day.

Leah Sax:
Yeah, that’s so helpful because that’s the exact opposite of being alone is that belonging. It’s being as part of a family of something other than yourself, isn’t it? Grace, do you have anything, a perspective on that, on what that kind of belonging looks like as opposed to being by yourself in in the church environment?

Grace Rees:
If you think about it in that sense of your being saved to be part of a body of people, the Bible uses various different kind of other metaphors or similes. My English is rubbish. So one of them is when you are saved, you get adopted into God’s family. And that’s just another way of saying into the body of the church. It’s tricky, isn’t it? Because we use the word church and you think the building or the traditions that go on and all of that rather than the body of the people, the group of people. When you think about that image of being adopted into a family and you know that that’s where you see it when you’re with the people together, that is you part of a big family. And that image, I think, is quite helpful in that sense because it kind of strips away the building. It’s about relationship and it’s about relationship with one another, specifically one another in relationship to God as well. And so to grow and keep going in your relationship with God, you need other people as part of that. And that’s part of the way God’s designed it to be from day one. And it’ll go through eternity.

Leah Sax:
I enjoy that you say it’s relationship with one another because of Christ, which I guess makes our relationships with people in the church look very different to relationships with people outside of the church.

Grace Rees:
Yeah, I think it does. You are united on the fact that you are part of this family and that the thing that bonds you is your relationship with Christ. And I suppose people can relate to the family image because, you know, we’ve all we all come from dysfunctional families, even the nicest families in the world, are dysfunctional on some level and have their issues and their struggles. But at the end of the day, you know, there is that kind of, yeah, but we are still family. We are blood. And a lot of that ties us together. Well, what ties us together is actually Jesus. There are people in church, you know, in that expression, local expression of church that you think there is no other reason that I would bother with you or that you would bother with me. But actually, we have a commonality that joins us. And I suppose it’s like going back to what I said about seeing churches in other countries and having friends, Christians, seeing Christians in other countries where actually their physical church can look so different to you know, my English Anglican Church or whatever. But the fact that somehow you have this bond, you can’t necessarily explain it. But because they love Christ, they love you. And and likewise and the thing that is most precious to you and most shapes you as a person, they also have. There’s a commonality on the very fundamental level of not just value, but, you know, belief and your most precious relationship. They also hold and cherish that as well.

Adam Curtis:
But it is incredible, isn’t it, when you’re being united around Jesus Christ, I mean, I love that phrase. You use the grace that he’s your most precious relationship. Yeah, I go into my church and people, they’re very different. Different ages from different classes from different cultural backgrounds and actually on a purely social sort of level, like there’s not necessarily many things which might hold us together, close together, and yet because we come and we’re coming around Jesus Christ to know him, to love him, to follow him, and we’re following him together, that that really just like glue us together and hold us together.

Grace Rees:
I mean, you do see that on the big scale, don’t you, on a Sunday like gathering or something. But also you see it maybe even more so when you meet for a small group Bible study or something. You know, I look back at some of the Bible study groups over the years and you think there’s no way that I would weekly choose to meet with this group of people for any other reason, like, you know, and not meaning that in a really horrible way. No, but just that we’ve got nothing in common. Our lives are drastically different. You know, even on all the other relationships involved in life, you know, there’s a single mum, there’s not a mum. There’s someone who’s 80 and there’s someone who’s 18. And there’s someone you know, it’s just from every walk of life. And you can sometimes be in a Bible study that is just chalk and cheese on a social level. But actually, when you’re around the word together and you start digging into that and talking about God and your relationship with him and Jesus, all of a sudden there is a bond with these people because you’re sharing that together and you’re seeing how that’s playing out in their lives, which it may be very different to your own. You have something so key is kind of drawing you together.

Leah Sax:
I really can relate to that difference. And you’re just rocking out with these people once a week for this Bible time. It reminds me a bit of Ephesians 2:22 and we built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his spirit. And together we are being built together. It’s that we can’t go alone. We are together the body.

Grace Rees:
And I think we ask any Christian who’s been a Christian for a while. The things that have helped them keep going, that will be key people along the way that God has used to keep them going and to help them.

Adam Curtis:
We need these key people to keep us going, to encourage us. And that means we’ve got to get to know these key people. They’re not just going to suddenly jump out of the woodwork. So we’ve actually got to be in relationship with them and be open and honest with them. And they could be open, honest with us. And yeah, to be able to stand shoulder to shoulder to to walk together does require just the everyday of relationships.

Andy Rees:
And that actually takes, it takes commitment and time sometimes some of those relationships where you are really rubbing up against each other and encourage each other, often that I find that also comes in the context of service. That’s serving alongside folk. You know, I don’t know it’s serving Jesus to make him known and to encourage other people to know better. Often in that sort of relationship context. You kind of also get to know each other.

Leah Sax:
You talk about service and commitment. If somebody like walking to church and they say, would you like to serve? Are we talking tea and coffee here Reesy?

Andy Rees:
Every time any of us go to church, there’s an opportunity to serve. And actually one of the key ways we serve each other is in the kind of Ephesians 4 language of serving one another by speaking the truth to one another in love. So what do I mean by that? As I go to church, I’m not just there to receive. I’m there to engage and talk and spend time with other people and just sort of talk about what been teaching me from that passage that Sunday or what’s been going on that week. But actually, every time I go to church, there’s an opportunity to encourage someone with the Lord Jesus Christ in a conversation and coffee afterwards. So I think as I go to church, that is part of my mindset. But having said that, OK, we’re all called to serve in that oneanother-ing way, for church to be able to happen, for people to be able to meet and gather. You know, actually, some things do have to happen, you know, for people to have tea and coffee after church actually takes some people to say, you know, once a month I’m going to do that to enable people to have those sort of conversations. But also in doing that, often I’m serving alongside other people. I get to know them. And actually, it’s kind of it’s both and it’s the informal conversations. But actually, sometimes it is formally committing to enable some area of ministry to happen in church life.

Grace Rees:
The language of service is funny one, isn’t it? It’s an attitude of thinking. If you think about what a servant is or someone who says they are putting other people’s needs before their own. So they’re choosing in their mindset to say, I’m going to help in some way, whether that be I’m going to help by serving coffee or whether I’m going to help by playing the musical instrument or whatever it is it’s thinking not I am coming here with the attitude of what can I get out of this? But actually how can I be part of this and be involved in this in a way that helps other people.

Leah Sax:
Grace, what would you say to someone who has just walked into a church building for the first time, has listened to this podcast and we’re saying get involved. The person who for me, sometimes even struggles to walk through the doors at church because the volume of people and that social interaction, what would you say as an encouragement? Just walking through the door, which you said to them, it’s about serving other people.

Grace Rees:
I would say the very fact that you have gone that is the first thing of service. You know, your presence is the picture of what God is doing in the world. If you’re a new Christian and you walk through the doors of church, there is another person that God has bought into his family for all eternity. And I get to physically see that and go, wow, God is doing that and you’re here. And I’m so thrilled that you’re here. That is the first kind of point of serving, isn’t it, to actually just physically be there? Because just by your presence. Yeah, we can stand around and go, wow, look at that, you know, wow, God, to save some crazy Welshman this week and he’s here. It can feel really intimidating can’t it, if you’re a new Christian, right. Well, I don’t I don’t want to be up the front. I don’t want to do that. I don’t hold this pressure to actually physically do something. But the first physical act of coming is the first thing that is just encouraging and is serving in and of itself. And I think and as you get more comfortable as being part of it and being there, that’s when you can kind of start thinking, oh, maybe I would like to be a little bit more involved

Leah Sax:
When we’re together we invested, we’ve we’ve committed. We’re trying as hard as he can to be in our church family. How is God at work when we are together as a church that’s perhaps different to when we’re not all by ourselves.

Andy Rees:
There is something unique about gathering for, I guess what you call corporate worship as you come together as God’s people, to sit under his word as it’s preached from the front to sing, sing his praises and dwell on his words and encourage each other. So you get lots of that sort of language in the New Testament, Colossians, Ephesians that as we sing, we are not just singing praise in response to go, but as we sing, we encourage each other with the words of God. And as you look over and see all that there, blessed belting in our hearts out as you look over and see Edna singing these praises to the Lord Jesus, she has served for eighty five years and singing them as vibrantly as she did the day she was saved because she’s been walking with Jesus all those years. That encourages you in a unique way to keep going with Jesus to keep following, to keep serving him. That this sort of corporate nature of gathering for worship, to hear God’s word, to pray to him together. That’s something that is not recreated by meeting up with some Christian friends to play football. There is something unique. You know, God will work in this through those sort of corporate gatherings they matter.

Grace Rees:
And like the language of the body, isn’t it, that they use in the New Testament to describe the church, a body is totally interlinked and cannot function without the other bits or functions and maybe not in the complete way. There is something that when when you come together, there is something that you have all sat under the same teaching of the word, and God will use that teaching for the whole body. Whereas whatever I’m reading in my own my own God may be really using in my life and applying it, but it’s not necessarily applying it to all the rest of the people in my family and my body to build us and push us and shape us in a certain direction. Whereas when you’re gathered and hearing his word together, then that is something that God is going to use in all of you somehow.

Leah Sax:
Praise the Lord. How wonderful that he works that way. Yeah.

Grace Rees:
Funny, isn’t it? Because it’s really hard to put your finger on what it actually is. But then actually sometimes having a bit of time away from church, you kind of like I can’t quite figure out why and I can’t put my finger on it, but I know I need to be back there and I’ve missed it.

Andy Rees:
And I guess that’s helpful because online church is different to corporately meeting together. You do miss something. If you think, oh, I’m going to be an online Christian, actually, that’s that’s not quite enough because because we’re not disembodied spirits, we’re actually made to have physical relationships with each other. And although there are wonderful opportunities that come with online church and maybe serve people like the lady in our church who hasn’t come to church for years because of her being homebound and she’s been able to connect through online church and what she hasn’t done for years. But those are kind of the exceptions rather than the norm for most of us. We need to be physically there because that’s the way God designed us to be, is a totally different experience to hearing preaching. When you physically sat in the room, that’s what like it’s just different. It just it just because we’re physical we’re physical,

Grace Rees:
You do need the physical and that’s what we’re created for. So it’s no surprise. It’s the kind of even when you’re sat there listening to God’s word and someone’s toddler throws a tantrum in the middle of it or something, you know, if you’re online, you don’t get the mess of life with it. You get a very sanitised, chosen version of your life and their life. Whereas when you’re in the building, you’re in there when someone has a coughing fit and just has to go out or you’re having a bad day and you feel really emotional and you’re sobbing during the songs. But all of that is hidden if you’re not physically there.

Leah Sax:
I think that goes back again to the idea of us being a relationship with each other and together growing and and as believers. So what if you’re involved in a church and you don’t feel that the Bible is being preached clearly or that you have community, like it just doesn’t feel like a good space. And I think alongside that, I’m also asking the question is, how do I find a good church

Andy Rees:
To start with I think it’s helpful to think you’re never going to find the perfect church, right? You’re never going to find the church that is going to tick all your boxes all the time. And if you do find it when you go there, you don’t go because you’ll ruin it because because the church is full of sort of sanctified sinners. You know, we’re saved sinners and we’re still wrestling with the old man and sin. We are forgiven, redeemed people, but we’re still sinners. And you’re going to find that in church. But actually, helpfully, what you say there Leah, is that we do in to find healthy churches, there’s lots of churches, but not all churches are necessarily healthy churches. And I guess at the start that you want to say, OK, what makes a healthy church? Well, you’ve got to have God’s word at the heart of it. It’s got to be Jesus glorifying, but it’s got to have God’s word at the driver of it. And I guess, why is that? If God’s word is at the heart of it, that God’s word will keep on changing the church to be more and more like Jesus. One of the key things you wanna be looking for in a church is not the main diet of the teaching expositional. I know that sounds a funny word, but expositional means, in effect, working through books of the Bible. As a church, as a preacher, as a preacher, through books of the Bible, I’m allowing God to say what he wants to say and he will keep changing and challenging the church.

Andy Rees:
It’s very easy to go to a church where the pastor only teaches topically on topics they want to teach on. And the trouble is, they’re in essence, the pastor is saying what they want to say, not necessarily what God wants to say, but I think a healthy church is at its heart, will have the Bible. And I would say this sort of expositional teaching as the main diet, because actually, if that’s the main diet, then the church will keep being conformed to being like Jesus. So where actually it’s not being that relational and friendly. You should hope that as that that passage comes up about relationality and friendliness that is preached and it changes the church to be more like Jesus in that aspect. So God’s word at the heart that should help people to be more relational should also drive us out in evangelism. I think a church, a healthy church will be concerned for people who don’t know Jesus. And if you’re in a church that doesn’t isn’t that bothered? It’s very insular. I would suggest that’s not all that healthy.

Leah Sax:
Are there any places where somebody could find online some resources where some Bible loving churches might be?

Andy Rees:
You can have a look at the Gospel Partnership’s website that would recommend lots of good churches. That would be sort of people who love Christ and love his words and love sharing it with other people. That would be a good place. I mean, we’re part of a network called FIEC and that wouldn’t be a bad place.

Leah Sax:
What does that stand for?

Andy Rees:
The Fellowship of Independent Evangelical churches. So there we go. Catchy. Adam Where would you look

Adam Curtis:
If I read the Bible with a friend and I got to know Jesus through reading the Bible with them, If I’ve done a course, at a local church, which had really taken me to Jesus, I think I would. Yeah. Want to follow these relationships. And where do they go to church, even if that means. Yeah, maybe maybe it’s a little bit further away from where I live. This person has helped me see Jesus and help me trust Jesus. So I’m going to trust them and the church.

Andy Rees:
That is a brilliant answer.

Adam Curtis:
I absolutely love Grace and Andy, I just think they’re the most kind and generous people and its so good to be able to be able tospend this time with them. I thought we were talking about right at the beginning about our conversation about church, how Church is us as individuals gathering around Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is the one who you us together and forms us into this building, into this body, into this community of brothers and sisters. And it’s just such a rich vision. Because actually, in our society at the moment, like we’re just so individualistic, we all just think it’s about me and my personal happiness and my personal growth and actually no no no no, church like throws out of the water. And then it’s about this whole community coming together, this whole community growing together. And actually, as we come together and grow together, God is working powerfully in us individually and collectively.

Leah Sax:
And that’s such a completely different mindset to just walking through a building on a Sunday morning or Sunday evening, isn’t it? It’s about this journey and this relationship together that is a vital part of the Christian life.

Adam Curtis:
Oh, yeah.

Leah Sax:
Yeah, it is, isn’t it? So these friendships and relationships, they make up the body of Christ. And I just love that we are all different. We have different purposes within the church. We can all serve and encourage and how that looks different for every single person. And that brings a lot of encouragement and calm to me because I don’t have to go into church and be all things to all people. Whilst I want to love the people there, it’s not about showing this perfect side of yourself. It’s about being real and vulnerable and sharing your life with other believers so that they can encourage you to keep going.

Adam Curtis:
Yeah, we exist for more than just ourselves. We exist for Jesus Christ. And thus we exist to be a part of his body, which is the church.

Leah Sax:
And whilst we go to church on a Sunday, that church family continues during the week, doesn’t it? Whether it’s in having your your Bible study time or going out for coffee with a mate to praying with someone, to reading the Bible with someone else, to just texting a mate again, this is a really tough day. Can you please pray for me? Just checking in. It is such a precious, precious relationship with belief.

Adam Curtis:
Yeah. And I and I need those relationships. I need these relationships I have with church to spur me on. I need these relationships to Help me love and follow the Lord Jesus. We live in a world which is very individualistic, but actually that’s a horrible world. I want I want to be surrounded by people who are my brothers and sisters who are going to love me and support me and care for me and who I in turn get to love and support and care. And we together as a body get to love and worship that all good.

Leah Sax:
Amen. Thank God for the church.

Adam Curtis:
Amen.

Leah Sax:
Thank you so much for your time today. We always like to ask our guests one bonus question, and that is what is the one piece of advice you’d give to your younger self? Go for it Reesy.

Andy Rees:
Keep believing that the gospel is God’s power to save anyone. And so be brave with that. Don’t be ashamed. Keep going, because there are people who are desperate to hear about Jesus and all that he has done for us.

Leah Sax:
Yeah. Amen. How about you. Go for it, Grace?

Grace Rees:
I would say when you’ve got the time, get into the Bible as much as possible.

Leah Sax:
Brilliant.

Grace Rees:
Don’t just read it, really study it.

Leah Sax:
Thank you so much, Grace and Andy, for your time today. We’re really thankful. Thanks.

Andy Rees:
Pleasure

Grace Rees:
Pleasure

Leah Sax:
Thank you so much to Andy and Grace Rees for being our guests on Episode 4 of Delight Podcast. And if you want to delve a little deeper into what church looks like, Adam has written a blog on the topic, which you can find on the Delight Podcast website. We’d love to hear from you. You can find us on Instagram at Delight Podcast. And our email is Hello at Delight Podcast.com If you fancy Twitter and Facebook, just search Delight Podcast. If you think what you’ve heard today might be of interest to others, please do like share and subscribe. This is Adam and Leah delightfully signing off. Bye bye!

Adam Curtis:
bye!