TRANSCRIPT Episode 20: Mental Health – wisdom for the hurting

Leah Sax:
Hello and welcome to episode 20, season five of Delight Podcast. I am Leah Sax.

Adam Curtis:
Hello and I am Adam Curtis and I cannot believe that we’re here in season five.

Leah Sax:
I know.

Adam Curtis:
Spotify kindly gave us a few facts about our listeners from last year, which I particularly enjoyed

Leah Sax:
Kindly Gave us?!!

Adam Curtis:
They shoved them in our faces.

Leah Sax:
They were like, make us watch Spotify wrapped.

Adam Curtis:
So some of these interesting facts, uh, firstly, for our listeners, their top music choice is pop.

Leah Sax:
I won’t judge them.

Adam Curtis:
That’s also my top music choice of 2023. Apparently over 50% of the time I’m listening to pop music. Terrible. Also, I enjoyed that for 26 of our listeners, we’re their number one podcast.

Leah Sax:
Who are you? I must know.

Adam Curtis:
Because obviously Leah and I are like, are two of those people, but they’re still 24 of us, 24 of.

Leah Sax:
Those, oh, I’m not my top podcast because I listen to other podcasts a lot. So although I listen to all the episodes, I listen to all the podcasts way more because there are more episodes of them.

Adam Curtis:
Bum bum. Bum. Mic drop right there

Leah Sax:
Da da da daaaa

Adam Curtis:
And apparently our most shared episode on Spotify was the one on sanctification. And after hearing that episode, I’m not surprised. I’ve listened to it and I’ve just absolutely loved it.

Leah Sax:
There’s something quite special when somebody shares something because, you know, like it matters.

Adam Curtis:
Amen Amen.

Leah Sax:
Now today’s topic is mental health and our guest is Helen Thorne. She is director of training and resources at Biblical Counselling UK, and we are aware this topic will be quite tender for some. So we’re just giving you a heads up that we will be talking about deep mental health issues in today’s episode.

Adam Curtis:
Hello and welcome to the podcast, Helen.

Helen Thorne:
It’s lovely to be here. Thank you.

Adam Curtis:
Oh, and it’s an absolute joy to have you with us. And why don’t we start this episode together? Can we hear your story of how you came to know Jesus Christ?

Helen Thorne:
Well, it’s a long time ago now. Sometimes I struggle to remember. But if you rewind time just over 30 years, I was at university and life was rather out of control. I’d had a childhood that had had a little bit of contact with the church. You know, I’d done brownies. I’d popped along to Sunday School just occasionally, but I’d never really understood anything, and I’d never got into this thing called church. But by the time I was at university, life was somewhat out of control. Problems had been mounting up, I was depressed, I was anxious, I was drinking heavily, I was self-harming, and yeah, my friends were really worried about me. So they nudged me along to go and see a counsellor. The counsellor in turn suggested I needed a little bit of a sort of an outpatient rehab programme to get me through some of the struggles that I was facing, and a lovely couple agreed to walk with me through that rehab program. They agreed to be the person that would, or the people that would welcome me into their home, talk things through, encourage me to get to meetings and things like that. And they were Christians. Now. I was horrible to them and I was a complete brat. And I would tell them I hated them. I would slam their front door and walk away. I would tell them that the God they talked about didn’t exist, or that I was really angry with the God that didn’t exist. I mean, I was very rational at that point, and I was really, you know, quite unbearable. And yet they kept welcoming me back and kept telling me that they loved me. And eventually it got to the point that I wanted to know why they were being so extraordinarily loving when I knew I was being so obnoxious.

Helen Thorne:
Well, I was so hurt, I suppose is is part of the the deal as well. One Christmas they invited me along to church and I thought, well, you know what? Maybe this is a good opportunity to find out what drives them because the way they were loving me so extraordinarily, either their faith was making a difference or they were just plain crazy. And I wanted to find out which. And I remember going along on Christmas Eve, I don’t remember a thing about the talk. I’m assuming it’s about Jesus being born. I mean, it’s a fairly safe bet on Christmas Eve. I don’t remember it. And but I do remember being captivated by the story of a God who would want something to do with messy people. And so from that point onwards, I went to church. I asked loads of awkward questions. I came along every Sunday. I came along midweek. I just wanted to know if it was really true, if this God the Bible was talking about really loved messy people and really could do something about the mess. I think it was about 8 or 9 months of asking awkward questions, and then I went along to an event where we were invited to give our life to Jesus. I didn’t do anything at all. I thought it was, um, a bit of a strange thing to do, but I went back the next day and the next day where there was a similar invitation to give your life to Jesus, and eventually, gripped by grace, I wanted to know this God who was so good and so loving and so kind.

Adam Curtis:
Oh, that is the most beautiful story. Thank you so much for that. I love that phrase you used there at the end, gripped by grace, that you wanted to know this God who is so loving, good and kind as you now look back over these years since coming to know the Lord Jesus, h ow would you say life has changed?

Helen Thorne:
Well, on that day, 30 something years ago, on one level, everything changed instantly and on another level nothing changed at all. So the day I became a Christian was the day I moved from death to life. It was the day I moved from darkness to light. I moved into God’s family. I had his spirit living inside me. It was a, you know, a massive transformation. But on another level, I was still depressed and I was still anxious, and I was still drinking and I was still self-harming. You know, that stuff doesn’t just suddenly go away when you become a Christian. And so I suppose from that day onward, there started a very slow unpicking of some of the tough stuff that I’d been through in my earlier years. There started to be a slow walk towards maturity and growth in Christ, and I would guess it probably took about ten years before I had unpicked enough of the muddle and changed to be like Jesus, enough where I could reach the point of going, actually, I’m not drinking anymore. I’m not self-harming anymore. I’m eating healthily rather than that being chaotic.

Helen Thorne:
It really was a very slow, very up and down process of change. And obviously in the 20 years since then, it’s continued to be slow up and down. Process of change. Probably the story gets a little less dramatic at that point because, you know, I wasn’t, you know, drinking, I wasn’t self-harming, I didn’t have an eating disorder. The anxiety and depression, they didn’t go, but they subsided a little bit. And so I suppose it became more of a gradual growth day by day. But each day I’ve just seen more depth of God’s love, more depth in his power and his sovereignty. Been able to trust him a little bit more with the complexities of life, and to know the wonder of being able to change, to be more like Jesus. I mean, the process is very far from complete. Anyone that knows me will be able to tell you that there are so many things that are very unlike Jesus in my life, but little by little, being able to go on that process of change and knowing it’s going to continue has been a wonderful journey.

Adam Curtis:
He used a very powerful sort of phrase there that over this time you’ve seen more about the depths of God’s love, of his power, the depths of his sovereignty. What do you mean by that?

Helen Thorne:
I think sometimes it can be very easy to go through this life and feel alone, and feel everything is out of control and feel that there is no hope. And even when we know a bit about the Bible and we’ve seen in God’s Word that Jesus is good and he’s a Saviour and he’s a King, still, deep in our hearts, it’s very easy to think I’m alone, I’m a mess, and this is all a bit of a disaster. And I think it takes a little while for us as human beings to begin to join the dots between what we read in God’s Word and know to be true, and what we actually experience day by day in our lives. And little by little as we engage with the word, as we talk to fellow Christians, as we apply what we’re learning to our own hearts, we can come to see that these things that are mysterious and we don’t like actually aren’t out of control. Those moments when we feel alone there is still the presence of the Lord. Those moments when we are utterly overwhelmed by our own sinfulness or guilt or shame. Well, those moments are still covered by God’s grace. Who is constantly well, who has cleaned us up. You know there is nothing left for him to clean, and we can know beyond any shadow of doubt that he’s going to impress those truths on our hearts and help us live them out more and more. And, you know, that’s a process. It’s a journey. We don’t become a Christian. And suddenly all those things we’ve learned about God being sovereign suddenly click. And we instantly trust him with every aspect of our lives. It’s as we walk through the mud and the mess with our eyes on Jesus, and our arms linked with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, that it it begins to make more sense and it begins to make more of a difference each and every day.

Leah Sax:
Thank you so much for being a part of the Delight Podcast family. Let us know what you thought of today’s episode by answering the question you can see next to today’s episode. In your app of choice, you know you can find us at Delight Podcast and DelightPodcast.com has a full transcript of today’s episode. Thank you for listening, liking and sharing.

Leah Sax:
Mental health is as important as your physical health. At least that’s what I’m hearing everywhere. Mindfulness medication, therapy, me time diagnoses, crises are all over our media, our social media. Yet at the same time, I know in hear that Jesus is all I need. True peace can only be found in resting in Jesus. That then begs the question, Helen, does it mean that if you trust in Jesus, you won’t struggle with mental health?

Helen Thorne:
Oh well, that would be quite nice, wouldn’t it? I mean, if it really were true that we could say, Come to Jesus and you will never get anxious or depressed again. I mean, that would be incredible. Yeah, but it is absolutely not how things work. I think we probably have to acknowledge that there have been churches, there have been teachers out there that have said things like that. And that’s incredibly sad because actually, when people believe that you shouldn’t struggle with your mental health when you’re a Christian, there are only two possible outcomes to that. Either you get really disillusioned with yourself because you feel you’re not measuring up as a Christian, or you get really disillusioned with God and the church because you feel that maybe God’s not giving you what he’s promised to give. Both of those things are pretty tragic. What the Bible is clear about is that we live in a broken world, a fallen world. Ever since Genesis three, the world has not been as it should be. And part of that not being as it should be is that we hurt each other. Relationships are broken. Cruel words are said. We treat each other well, not as image bearers, but as objects. We hurt each other.

Helen Thorne:
And we know from sociological studies as well as biblical studies that when human beings hurt each other, there’s an impact. And that impact is often shown in our mental health. We also know that since Genesis 3, our bodies have been decaying, and that means that our biochemistry is not working as it should. The Bible describes us as having bodies and a soul. We are embodied souls, if you like, and what happens to our bodies impacts us as well. We’re not suddenly immune from biochemical imbalances just because we’re Christians, and that impacts our mental health as well. You know, coming to Christ does give us hope. It does give us community. It does give us so much that is good. And one day in the new heavens and the new earth, it will give us complete healing and anxiety and depression and everything else will disappear. But at the moment we’re in the now and the not yet. We’re with Jesus, but we’re not with him fully. And so we should still expect to feel the impact of this fallen world. And part of that is struggling with our mental health. So it is absolutely normal to struggle with your mental health if you’re following Jesus.

Leah Sax:
This is so helpful to hear. And looking back to that Genesis origin explaining why people struggle with mental health. Are there examples of people in the Bible struggling with their mental health?

Helen Thorne:
Yes, and you have to be slightly careful because obviously the specific diagnoses that we talk about today, well, they didn’t talk in that kind of terminology in the Bible. And so there’s a slightly different vocabulary that’s used. But you can absolutely see people struggling with their mental health in the Bible. Think of Elijah, for example. He had seen God do incredible miracles. You know, he had seen mighty works of power from God and also been threatened massively by the people around him. And he ran away and he lay face down, and he wanted to die. He he wanted to give up. He was in utter despair. Or you can think about people like David hiding in a cave from Saul, who was trying to kill him, absolutely terrified. Or you can think of Tamar, who was raped by her half brother who lived as a desolate woman. Or you can even think of the apostle Paul, who most of us know best for the fact that he was an incredible church planter, an amazing preacher, a brilliant evangelist. You know, the kind of guy that used to come out with, yeah, I was flogged, I was beaten, I got thrown into prison and shipwrecked a couple of times. It’s all good. The gospel is going out. And you kind of think of him in that kind of terms, but he also talks about his anxiety and we kind of forget that. But actually, if you look in the Bible, there are loads of people struggling with fear, loads of people who are absolutely desolate, loads of people who want to give up. And that shouldn’t surprise us because they’re normal human beings living in this fallen world of ours.

Leah Sax:
What good news does the Bible offer, to those people Maybe the person listening, the person who has a friend who’s struggling. What good news is the Bible offer to those struggling with mental health?

Helen Thorne:
Oh, it Offers so much good news, but none of it is simplistic, okay? It offers us a normality. It gives us a structure to understand why we’re struggling and to know that we’re not weird when we are struggling. Pain and suffering is common in this life. It goes in the next, but it’s common now. It also gives us a vocabulary to express that. I mean, you go to some of the Psalms and they talk about feeling downcast and desperate and desolate. And so it helps us to know how to articulate our mental health struggles, because sometimes we struggle to find the words. But in the Bible we know that. There is a vocabulary there for us to use. It provides us with a community, both a relationship with God, which is 24/7, 365 days of the year. Rather than having to face our mental health struggles alone, we do so under the Lordship of Christ with him as our good Shepherd, leading us through the complexity. But it also provides us with the community of the church, other people who are like us, who have struggles like us, and we can spur each other on to love and good works and pursue Christ together, mature together in the middle of hard things.

Helen Thorne:
And it also gives us a structure for change and maturing. And by that I don’t mean we can necessarily make all of our mental health struggles go away. But when we’re Christians, when the Holy Spirit is at work inside of us, there is always potential for change. And that doesn’t mean clicking our fingers and making everything better, but it does mean finding a little bit more hope, a little more strength to persevere, a little sort of different perspective on life. And as we change in those small ways, we can find that those things have an impact on our mental health as well. Of course, there’s the promise of eternity to where there is no more sickness and there is no more pain. And so we can know that even if life is really hard now, one day, one day at a time of the Lord’s choosing, not ours, all of that will go away. And that is also a wonderful thing to hold on to, knowing that there is better ahead.

Leah Sax:
For the Believer, the Christian who knows Jesus, is it right for them to expect healing? Is it right for them to take medicine or do mindfulness, or have a, say, a secular therapist? I know there’s a big question for a variety of people in that question.

Helen Thorne:
That’s a huge question. And on one level, of course, pray for healing. Why wouldn’t we? I mean, God is a God who heals, and he certainly promised to heal us at some point, whether it’s this life or the next. So pray away. But we can’t guarantee he’s going to heal us in this life. All of us are going to be struggling with something until the day we go to see him face to face, you know, pray. But it’s, you know, God’s will, not ours in how those prayers are answered. But of course, pursuing things that will help us with our mental health struggles is an entirely wise thing to do. Uh, you mentioned three things there. I think medication is is great when we need it. Now, not everyone needs medication, but when we do need medication, why not take it? We are embodied souls. Our bodies are not functioning as they should sometimes. And if there’s a medication out there that helps our body function better, well, why wouldn’t we want to take that? It is a useful bit of symptom relief that helps us cope with life, and it can be incredibly helpful. There’s no shame in taking medication. Similarly with secular therapies, secular psychologies, you know, there’s lots of helpfulness there. There is a huge amount of common wisdom in secular therapies. Now, if you’re having a secular therapy, there may come a point where it crunches slightly with your Christian faith, but any therapists worth their salt should be willing to respect your faith.

Helen Thorne:
And so if, for example, a therapist asks you to say an affirmation that you just feel it just crunches with what you believe as a Christian, you can just say to them, I think that conflicts a bit with my faith. Do you mind if we rephrase that and and find a different affirmation for me to say, and they should be fine with that. So as long as we’re open and honest with them, it should be all good. And as for mindfulness, well, it’s a mixed bag, isn’t it? Often there is, you know, real good in mindfulness. It encourages us to be still, to work on our breathing, to meditate, to think about today rather than tomorrow. And, well, that sounds quite similar to what the Bible says. But, you know, there will be moments there again where it might ask you to set your thoughts aside rather than the biblical version of taking every thought captive. And that might be a bit different. But again, if we enter into these things prayerfully and carefully chat it over with friends, there’s no reason to run away from what’s good in these things. We just might want to make a few tweaks along the way, take what’s helpful and leave what’s not.

Leah Sax:
I’m aware a lot of people listening will have, and I know I’ve just said this so many different experiences, so I’m really eager to just dig into some practical applications. Let’s start with a big question. If you’re okay with that, Helen, how do we look after mental health? Like how do we stay mentally healthy?

Helen Thorne:
And that’s such an important question isn’t it? And I think, you know, if you Google that, you’re going to come up with loads and loads of ideas. And unsurprisingly, a lot of them quite chime with what the Bible says because, unsurprisingly, God is the person who can help us best to live life in a way that is sustainable, a way that is wise, and a way that is healthy. Because he made us and he knows us the best. So there will be things there, like taking rest. So many of us find that so hard, don’t we? But we are designed to work for six days and to rest for one. But so many of us just try and power through for seven days A week for 52 Weeks a year, and then we suddenly wonder why we’re so exhausted and anxious, but actually living life God’s way, taking regular rest, actually having proper downtime is really good for our mental health, for our thriving. The Bible talks about community, and community is really good for our mental health as well. We need each other and the church is meant to be a place where we, you know, we share lives together. As the letter to the Thessalonians says, where we speak the truth in love to one another, where we spur each other on. It’s meant to be a hub of, you know, being together, weeping with each other, rejoicing with each other, and actually having those close knit relationships really do help us maintain good mental health, expressing our emotions rather than suppressing our emotions. Sometimes as Christians, I think sometimes we feel we ought to take those hard emotions and squish them really far down into our experience and not let anyone see. Maybe we just ought to praise God the whole time, but we forget. The Bible is full of lament, you know, David lamented, Jeremiah lamented, Isaiah lamented. Jesus lamented. You know, we have an entire book of the Bible called Lamentations. As Christians, there’s always something to praise God for because he is so good. But there’s always something to cry over as well, because the world is so broken and we want to be expressing both of those things. Not going to the woe is me. It’s all so bad there is no hope. Nor isn’t it brilliant because God is on the throne, but a realistic view of hope and lament Simultaneously.

Helen Thorne:
We can pour out our hearts. And then I think, finally, you know, in terms of keeping mentally healthy, you know, one really key sort of factor in keeping mentally healthy is knowing that you’ve got purpose. Um, and actually, wow, what purpose does God give, uh, his precious children? Not only are we set apart for holiness to become like Christ, we get to take part in this incredible thing called the church and use our gifts to serve one another, whatever those gifts might be. And we get to take part in, in whatever ways, in, in the whole sharing the gospel with the people around us. And that doesn’t mean we all ought to be up front at church or all incredible church planters and evangelists. We are all so different and all in different places. But actually we all have gifts. We all have purpose. And revelling in that is so important. Not in a way that puffs us up. I talk about sort of L’Oreal moments, you know, when we kind of cross our hair and go, Because I’m worth it, you know, that’s not what we’re going here. But it’s about knowing our gifts, our identity, our purpose, our community, because Jesus is worth it. And actually he makes us in his image to do works that he’s prepared in advance for us to do and to be his precious children. And knowing things like that can make a world of difference to our mental health.

Leah Sax:
What if you are the person who is pouring out their heart to Jesus, but doesn’t feel like Jesus is enough and doesn’t feel like they have a purpose and doesn’t feel like they can go to church and just feels that they’re even struggling to pray in that moment because their mental health is currently in that state. What wisdom would you have for that person?

Helen Thorne:
Yeah, and that’s such a hard place to be, isn’t it? And I’m sure a number of us listening can remember being in that place, or maybe are in that place right now. And I think the first thing I want to say is to those people who are not in that place, please do go round and visit that friend, drop them a text, invite them out for a walk. Nothing heavy, not a not an hour long Bible study. Just a short walk, a cuppa, and maybe a short word about Jesus. Just one verse. So we want to be reaching out to people like that. But if we do find ourselves in that place, then I think as much as possible, let’s be talking to people that can help us work out whether maybe we need to go and see a doctor right now, because a little bit of, you know, medication might help, whether we are someone that needs a bit of therapy because things have just got a bit worse than normal, and we need an extra professional helping hand to help us through. But also, let’s just hold on to single profound truths about God.

Helen Thorne:
Like God’s grace and mercy is sufficient. There is no Christian that is outside of his grace. We are washed clean. There is no Christian who is an unloved child of God. All of us are handpicked, chosen, called by the living God. All of us have gifts. Now we may not particularly, you know, enjoy using our gifts sometimes. Sometimes we can feel a bit despairing and not want to use them. And of course there is a place for resting. But actually knowing it’s impossible to be a Christian who is not gifted because God gifts all of his children. And maybe just sometimes talking to people about what our gifts might be and how we can use those in small and manageable ways that aren’t going to stress us out too much, can be a good thing to do. I love meeting up with people that I know and just going, you know, when I look at you, I just see these three, four, five, six gifts and I really praise God for you. Often they’ll sit there and go, no, no, no, that’s not me. I’m a Mess.

Leah Sax:
Yeah.

Helen Thorne:
And I sit there and go, well, I’m a mess too. I’m not denying there’s messiness there. But that messiness doesn’t mean the gifts aren’t there doesn’t mean the potential’s not there doesn’t mean the purpose isn’t there. It’s expressing those gifts, that purpose in the middle of the mess. And we usually need someone to help us do that. And please know if you’re in that place right now, someone in your church will be willing to help you through that. They won’t be perfect, but they will be willing to reach out a little bit and have that conversation and help you see just how much you are loved because of Jesus, and he doesn’t make mistakes.

Leah Sax:
Do you have any Bible verses that you think would be helpful to direct people to? Is there any scripture that people could go to for encouragement? If they have the capacity to read and spend time in God’s Word?

Helen Thorne:
Yeah, and I think just taking tiny baby steps in God’s Word, take a bite. Even if you can’t take a full meal of a Bible study, just just take a little bit in and maybe a verse of a Psalm that might help you lament. Just flicking through some of the Psalms, you’ll find some incredible words to express to the Lord how you’re feeling, and you can be really real and raw and gritty with him. Second place I like going is the very beginning of Habakkuk, which is maybe not a book that many of us read very often. It’s very small and very hard to find, and it has far too many K’s in the name as well on a Scrabble board. But Habakkuk is just great at asking really big questions of God. You know why, God? How long are you serious, Lord? And sometimes I think we feel we can’t say those things to God. But Habakkuk shows us that we can. So actually, as well as expressing in the Psalms, ask really big questions with the help of Habakkuk and then two New Testament places just quickly as well, the beginning of Ephesians A, just to remind us who we are in Christ. Ephesians 1:3-14 are places that I live when life is hard, you know, it reminds us that even if we are messy and broken and feeling like we are face down in the mud, that we are still chosen, called children of the living God, set apart for holiness, indwelt by the spirit, washed, clean, redeemed, bought back at a price forgiven, indwelt by the spirit, sealed for eternity, Safe.

Helen Thorne:
And actually, even if everything is falling apart in our lives, then that is true of us. And that is so important to know. And then the final bit when we’ve got the energy, this will come a little bit later. But the final bit, uh, Ephesians 4 reminds us that we can take off our old self and put on our new. Now that is not takeoff depression, read a bit of the Bible and put on happy thoughts. That’s not where I’m going with this. But what we can do is go in a little bit of a process of change. For example, think of someone that just thinks to themselves, oh, I’m unlovable. And we can just start noticing that as an old self thought, an old self thought is just a thought that is in conflict with what God says about us. So every time we say, oh, I’m unlovable, we can just catch it and go, oh, hang on, that’s an old self thought. And we can go to Scripture and read a verse and go, huh? God says he loves me.

Helen Thorne:
Now that’s not going to sink in immediately. Uh, but actually, if we keep doing that and keep doing that and keep doing that, gradually we can get to the point of going, oh, I’m so unlovable. Oh, hang on a second. God says he loves me. And then little by little over weeks, months, maybe even years. This is not a sprint. It’s a marathon. You know, we can get to the point of going, oh, maybe God loves me and then get to the point of going, well, God does say he loves me and he doesn’t lie. And then get to the point of going, can it really be true that he does actually love me? And one day reached the point where we can look at the cross of Christ and go, wow, I am adored. Not because I’m sorted, but because God is good. I am lavished with his love. And that is what it means to take off our old self and put on our new. And again, that won’t miraculously take away all of our mental health struggles. But goodness me, it’s so much easier to persevere through the hard times when you really know you’re loved compared to when you think you’re alone.

Leah Sax:
You mentioned it earlier. If we are a friend or a church family, brother or sister to somebody who is struggling, do you have any more practical wisdom of things that we could be doing to love that person, that family, that individual?

Helen Thorne:
Yeah, and it’s going to vary so much from relationship to relationship. But broadly speaking, do be praying for them because God is good and he is active. So please do be talking to the one who loves them most and asking him to act. Please do keep in touch with them. Please don’t give up. Lots of people who are depressed or anxious will feel that People just think it’s too hard. You know People don’t change quickly. None of us do. And so when we’re walking alongside each other, it’s it’s for a long haul, not a short haul. So just keep going. It doesn’t have to be doing anything big and spectacular. Just keep going and going for a walk and occasionally talking about Jesus and, you know, giving them a lift to a GP appointment or a lift to church, something like that. Something simple. Take round a meal. Do encourage them to go and see people with a bit more expertise than you. If you’re feeling out of your depth, encourage them to see their doctor to get some counselling. Do know that actually, just by speaking little words of hope into people’s lives, you can make a difference.

Helen Thorne:
You know, talk about the fact that God is a shepherd who is leading them, a rock and a refuge who’s protecting them, a king who’s who’s ruling over them, a spirit who is indwelling them. I mean, don’t do all of those things in one conversation. Just, just just pick one of those things and just rip in a little truth, you know, you don’t want to go to all the obvious passages, you know, all your anxious, oh, let me go to the passage that says, do not be anxious. You know, try and avoid those superficial links, but just talk about who God is and what he is doing, and you’ll be amazed at what difference that can make over a period of time. I think maybe just the last thing to say is please do that as a group of friends, not on your own. Because actually we’re designed to work in community and actually no human being have enough time, capacity, wisdom, gifts to be everything another human being needs. So the more we can work in little groups together, the better.

Adam Curtis:
Can you look back at a time when you’re particularly struggling with your mental health? And could you maybe share a story of how God used a friend in your life to encourage you?

Helen Thorne:
There was a lovely family in the church I was in at the time, and I was in a particularly bleak place. I wasn’t eating very much, and I really didn’t feel that I had any hope to go on. I think most days I wanted to be with Jesus in heaven rather than alive. And this lovely couple, they didn’t really. I mean, they weren’t counsellors, they didn’t have any expertise. They weren’t mental health specialists in any way, shape or form. But they committed to inviting me round regularly for lunch on Sunday, and they didn’t force me to eat anything. But they did encourage me to eat something, and they allowed me just to chill out with their family and their elderly dog that was so blind. He kept bumping into chairs and things as he walked around the living room. They had a tradition of going round the table before lunch and everyone saying something that they wanted to thank God for that week. Now it really wasn’t rocket science. It was a short prayer of thanksgiving, a little bit of roast dinner, and a cuddle with a fluffy dog in front of Sunday afternoon TV. You know, there’s the sort of thing that most of us well, maybe not the fluffy dog, but most of us can manage to offer those things. Whilst it wasn’t everything I needed, it was community. It was love. It was nutrition. It was a moment of lifting my eyes away from myself and onto the hope that God had to offer, and it was a chance to just be. In a family environment where there was no pressure and no condemnation. And whilst yes, I needed people with more specialist help, you know, expertise to help me as well, that really sticks out to me as a little place of love and a little place of change, because it was just normal Christians doing normal Christian things in ways that brought hope. And it still sticks with me 30 years on.

Leah Sax:
I’m asking this next question because I know a lot of people have experienced sadness and difficulty with historically, perhaps, how the church has dealt with mental health. Do you have any wisdom for how the church could better support mental health as the the bigger church, as opposed to the individual member of the church family?

Helen Thorne:
Yeah And it’s, you know, it’s it’s right to acknowledge, isn’t it, that there have been some things that have gone very badly wrong, although of course, right also to celebrate things that have gone very well indeed. It’s been a mix, as the church so often is. And I think one thing the church can do is just raise awareness, you know, a book on a bookstore, praying for people struggling with their mental health in the prayers, making sure Bible studies or sermons have a little bit of an illustration that speaks to people that are struggling with anxiety or depression. Just making that part and parcel of our normal conversation is one way to help. Allowing churches to be places, or encouraging churches to be places where we are real with one another. We’ll also help. Again, sometimes I think we experience that little bit of pressure to be all shiny and sorted once we go through the doors of the church, and none of us are. I mean, some of us are having better weeks than others, but none of us are all shiny and sorted. And actually, when people ask us the question, how are you? Well, at least with some people giving them an answer that maybe is a bit more honest than fine, thank you. We don’t want to tell everybody everything, but, you know, hopefully there will be a few people with whom we we genuinely can be honest and go, you know what? I’m not okay. It’s been an awful week. My anxiety has been through the roof, or I feel I’ve hit rock bottom with despair, just, you know, saying that to one another and praying with one another in the middle of that can be transformational. I think churches holding evenings on depression or anxiety or whatever else it might be, can be a wonderful opportunity for people to think these things through biblically, because actually, it’s not that easy to think these things through biblically.

Helen Thorne:
There’s not that much material out there. There is some, but there’s not that much. It’s far easier to go on Google and get a completely secular opinion of what is going on. And sometimes churches think, well, I’m not sure I’ve got, you know, the specialist to be able to do that, but there’s probably somebody in the church who has struggled with their mental health but is doing a bit better now and could do ten minutes on the experience. And there’s probably somebody in the church that’s maybe been a nurse or a GP or a social worker or something like that, that could talk from a professional perspective, and there’s probably someone that’s been married or friends with that can talk more from a friendship or caring perspective. It’s probably going to be a church leader that can talk from a biblical perspective, and each of those people just does ten minutes, and then everyone sits around and chats about it. That can be quite an easy way to start the conversation. And then if we just are intentional about growing together, all of us acknowledging our weaknesses, but all of us pursuing Christ together in the middle of those weaknesses, then the church can be a very loving community where there is an abundance of hope. And along the way, maybe some people will want to train to be those specialists, those people who really can bring Christ to bear in very nuanced ways, in very difficult circumstances. And with their help as well. The church can be just a huge source of help for those who are struggling.

Leah Sax:
Now, talking of resources, I’m actually very well aware that you have written some materials, some books that would be helpful, perhaps to our listeners. Would you be happy to share some of your work with us?

Helen Thorne:
Thank you. Yes. So I guess the two books that probably link best to what we’ve been talking about today is one book for people who are struggling and one book for people who want to help others. The book for people who are struggling. It’s called Hope in an Anxious World. It’s a very short book because when we’re anxious, we only want to read short books, and every chapter is short as well. But it just helps us to understand anxiety a bit more from a biblical perspective. And it helps us to think about, well, how anxiety can lie to us and tell us we’re all alone and everything’s out of control and there is no hope. And it refocuses us on what Jesus says. It is not everything you need to know about anxiety. You need a much bigger book for that. But hopefully it is something that will encourage us in the middle of our anxiety. And that’s, you know, for people who are Christians and for those people who are thinking about Christianity as well, but for those in the church who want to walk alongside others or think about how is the church, we can become more loving and supportive, more Christ centred in our care of those people who are struggling with their mental health. A colleague and I, Steve Midgley, and I have written a book called Mental Health in Your Church and again, a relatively short book, a Handbook for churches, helping us to understand what mental health and mental illness is, helping us to think about how. As a church, we can love people wisely and well, not doing everything but doing many things to walk alongside people. And it ends with a whole host of case studies, if you like, or real life examples of how churches have or can walk alongside people in the individuality and the complexity of the situations that we all face from time to time.

Adam Curtis:
Can I just say, I want to have Helen’s voice in my ear, like every day just telling me gospel encouragement?

Leah Sax:
Yeah. Me too.

Adam Curtis:
Like, I just loved hearing that. It was it was just so warm and so rich and was just lifting my eyes to heaven. Oh, what a beauty.

Leah Sax:
I know the line that grabbed me was actually part of her testimony when she realised that we have a God who would want something to do with messy people, and that she was gripped by God’s grace, and that that line of God’s grace and mercy being sufficient just ran through a really deep personal discussion on things that can break people so much. But the fact that God’s grace is still sufficient. Alongside acknowledging all the good gifts God has given us to help us deal with mental health, whether it is medication or therapy or these things. But the way that she speaks is just sound bites of gospel.

Adam Curtis:
Amen and like it’s just pushing into that. There is so much help. When she started listing that sense. Okay, being a Christian struggling with mental health, it certainly gives you a structure. It suddenly gives you a future worth living for. It suddenly gives you a community with other people. And the Lord God who’s always with you. There’s just so much help when you’re in this fight and when you’re in this battle.

Leah Sax:
Helen, thank you so much for your tremendous wisdom that you’ve shared with our Delight Podcast listeners. Today. It’s time for our bonus question, which for this season, season five is what Bible verse is currently bringing you most joy.

Helen Thorne:
For me at the moment and it will vary from week to week. I’m back in Habakkuk again, Habakkuk chapter three and verse two. Lord, I have heard of your fame. I stand in awe of your deeds, O Lord. And I don’t know about you, but I find it very easy to get distracted by the things that are hard, and very distracted by the things that are wayward in my life. When I keep my eyes on either of those things, I find I do spiral down a bit because life is hard and there is stuff in me that is not as it should be. But actually, when I do take the time to remember how good God is, to remember how committed he and I are to each other, because he is that covenant God, the God who has promised to be my King forever. When I actually do stand quietly with a stilled mind and look at all he is and all he does, then that is just a fountain of hope that I would invite anyone to join me in. Stand in awe of our Lord. He is so good.

Leah Sax:
Thank you so much to Helen Thorne for being a guest on episode 20, our beautiful start to season five of Delight Podcast. Next week our guest is going to be Simon Dickson. As we look at the topic of biblical contentment, this is Adam and Leah delightfully signing off. Bye bye.

Adam Curtis:
And before we actually say goodbye, I just want to throw in there something which Leah forgot..Fool! Is the fact that all the books which have been mentioned in today’s episode, we will be placing in our show notes.

Leah Sax:
Okay, fair enough. I will make sure they’re in the show notes. I’ll make sure they’re in the show notes. This is now in fact, finally, Adam and Leah delightfully signing off. Bye bye.

Adam Curtis:
Oh, and can I just. Add That I just thought it was remarkable how Helen’s comments, how they built on some of the stuff we looked in our sanctification episode, but they also linked in to some of the glorious stuff we looked in in our episode on Joy with Kirsten Birkett. If you loved what you heard today, go and listen to Kirsten and Joy. It’s fantastic.

Leah Sax:
Am I now allowed to say goodbye? Adam?

Adam Curtis:
You are now Leah. Allowed to say.Goodbye?

Leah Sax:
Do I have to do. The whole the delightfully thing, or can I just say goodbye?

Leah Sax:
You have To. Yeah.

Leah Sax:
This is Adam and Leah delightfully signing off. Bye bye.

Adam Curtis:
Goodbye.