Leah Sax:
Welcome to Episode ten of Delight Podcast Season three. I am Leah Sax and this is Adam Curtis.
Adam Curtis:
Hello.
Leah Sax:
Adam. I can’t believe once more we are here at season three.
Adam Curtis:
What I know is actually incredible. I sort of text you last night Leah just because it suddenly dawned on me. We’re now at season three. This random little idea, which we had all those months ago, has now hit season three and it seems to be working and people seem to be enjoying it.
Leah Sax:
God is Good.
Adam Curtis:
Amen. Preach it sister.
Leah Sax:
Yeah.
Leah Sax:
And God has clearly over many more doors than we thought existed. And if you’re new to Delight Podcast, we welcome you. Our aim is to help new Christians live for Jesus, whilst hopefully simultaneously encouraging older believers to keep going. So welcome to the Delight Podcast family.
Adam Curtis:
Welcome indeed. And welcome to Season three. And our first episode is going to be on hospitality. Our guest today, we’ve got John and Katherine Brown. Katherine is a team leader for Fusion in London and is a member of New Community Church Sidcup. While Jon is one of the leaders at New Community Church and the author of More Real.
Leah Sax:
So Adam, When you first suggested this topic of hospitality, I was like, okay, it’s not like the main thing I’d think of as a podcast for New Christians topic. Why are we doing this topic and who are these two random human beings? I have never met before.
Adam Curtis:
Because when people open their homes and their very lives, God turns strangers into deep friends. And we’re interviewing these people because they’re new friends of mine here in Sidcup who have just shared life with me but also have shown me great hospitality and in doing that has helped me love and trust the Lord that little bit more.
Leah Sax:
So I’m thrilled to welcome Katherine and John Brown to a Delight Podcast. Welcome.
Katherine Brown:
Thanks.
Jon Brown:
Whoo!
Leah Sax:
Firstly, Katherine, can you tell us a little bit about you? What do you do?
Katherine Brown:
So I work for an organisation called Fusion. They’re a student mission organisation and our vision basically is helping churches to do student work. So we train student workers and we help them to get their students sharing their faith. So that is what I do. And I’m part of New Community Church.
Leah Sax:
Amazing. And where is new community church?
Katherine Brown:
It is in sunny Sidcup, south east London, where Adam lives.
Adam Curtis:
Is and is actually is actually sunny right now.
Leah Sax:
Is it really?
Adam Curtis:
Yeah, I’m surprised about it because it’s been grey and moody.
Katherine Brown:
Yeah.
Leah Sax:
Jon, can you tell us a little bit more about yourself? What do you do?
Jon Brown:
I work for New Community Church. I’m one of the leaders here. I’ve been here for about six, seven years. I’m originally from the West Country. So if you hear a few twangs coming through when I say ‘girl’ or ‘world’ or ‘chicken curry’ or something like that, that’s where my accent originates. So I grew up in a little seaside town called Weston-super-mare. If you’ve ever been there. Ever been? Never been.
Leah Sax:
Yes I have!
Adam Curtis:
I went to Weston-super-mare with Leah in fact.
Leah Sax:
Yes.
Jon Brown:
Oh, nice.
Katherine Brown:
Wow. Oh,
Adam Curtis:
I’ve seen the beach, which is more like a muddy slush.
Jon Brown:
Yeah, yeah. A lot of people call it Western super mud. So, yeah, it’s not exactly the Bahamas, but it’s my hometown, so. Got to represent.
Leah Sax:
How did you come to know Jesus?
Jon Brown:
I was very fortunate to have parents who really love God. They both been missionaries actually in all sorts of countries in France and Morocco and Thailand and Rwanda and raised me to know God. But then when I was 18, 19, I went off to do some mission work myself. And whilst I was in other countries trying to tell people about Jesus, I decided actually that I wasn’t quite as convinced as I thought I had been, that he was God, that he was who I had grown up to believe he was. And then I went on a journey for about two years of exploring who I really believe Jesus was. And after about two years, through a lot of wrestling, a lot of thinking, a lot of questioning, as well as some kind of supernatural experiences, I would say I decided, no, I really did believe in God. Yeah. Since then I’ve been trying to live for him as much as I can and still have questions, still have doubts, but so grateful to know him and to live for him.
Leah Sax:
So you say you’ve come to know God. What was it about God’s character and who he was that was kind of that step of going, Yeah, this is Jesus, my saviour.
Jon Brown:
People say, Oh, are you a head person or a heart person? You kind of all in your head, all in your heart. And I would say I’m both like I was really convinced by the claims of Christianity and who Jesus was. So I studied history at university. And I just think that the the historical claims for Jesus are convincing that the claims for the resurrection are convincing. So in my head I was convinced that Jesus was God. But I think as a Christian, you really need to be convinced in your heart as well. Maybe that’s my personality as well. But yeah, I think just his kindness and grace, like I’m so hard on myself. Like I’m extremely harsh on myself, just the grace of God. That means I don’t have to earn His love. I don’t have to make it up to him if I screw up and I beat myself up so much when I make mistakes. But knowing that God isn’t there, kind of wagging his finger over my head or reminding me of all the past sins I’ve committed. But he keeps no records of wrongs that as far as the East is from the West so far as he removed our sins from us. And I love that. I love that God is his mercy. He’s a new every morning. So it’s one of the best things about being a Christian is that our mistakes don’t define us. He’s full of mercy and love and patience and what a privilege.
Leah Sax:
Oh, Jon, it’s just so great to hear those truths, and I’m going to unpick them in a moment. But firstly, Katherine, would you tell us how you came to faith?
Katherine Brown:
Yes. My story is probably the polar opposite to Jon’s. I was raised in an atheist family, so they don’t believe in God at all. They believe in some things like karma, feathers or angels, things like that, but not God. So I wasn’t raised going to church. I hadn’t heard much about Jesus apart from the Nativity story. And then I went to drama school in Sidcup, actually, and that’s why I’m in Sidcup. So I studied at Rose Bruford and I was away from home and sort of starting to think through What do I believe? I love drama and all of this. And I was meeting loads of new people and then as part of my second year we went out to the States for a year. So I went to Philadelphia and I was doing dance out there. And three weeks into being in Philadelphia, I got a phone call from back home from one of my friends saying, Have you heard what’s happened to Stefan? And I said, No, like what’s happened? See, is he ill? And they said, I’m really sorry, but Stefan died yesterday and it was one of those phone calls, you know, those life changing phone calls where you’re like. Whoa. Everything’s going to be different after this moment. And I was just so upset, so distraught that a friend that I grew up with had died really suddenly.
Katherine Brown:
He was so young. He was 23. I didn’t know that he’d been ill. He’d found out he had a brain tumour the month before and it had been very rapid and he’d actually reached out to me to meet up before I went out to the States and I said, Oh no, I’m, I’m going out to the States and too busy to meet up. But he wanted to tell me that he was basically going to die. So I had a whole load of guilt and a whole load of just real sadness around this. There was a lot of emotions to process. I reached out to his mom and I said, like, I’m so sorry. I wish I wish I’d been different. I wish I’d been a better friend, like just all of the guilt and stuff. I just put it all on her. And she said to me, Katherine, let me tell you about Stefan’s last moments before he died. He saw heaven and he was completely at peace. And if you want to honour Stefan or you want to do something or whatever, you just need to look into who Jesus is. And you need to go on a journey of figuring out what you believe and what will happen to you when you die. Because Stefan was completely at peace. He wasn’t scared at all.
Katherine Brown:
And he loved you as a friend. You were a great friend to him and just said loads of kind things to me, but also really encouraged me to look into the gospel, to look into Jesus. And so that’s what I tried to do, but I didn’t really know any Christians, so I sort of just started looking at the Bible and then Googling things online to try and figure it out. And I read something online or I heard something that said, Oh no, you know, you can pray to God and God might do something if you pray. And so I got to a really low point where I was just I was grieving. I was so sad and I didn’t see an end to my sadness. If you’ve grieved before, you probably know that moment where you think this is just never going to shift. And I just prayed a very simple prayer to God, and I said, God, if you’re real, I want to feel joy like Now, please. And in that moment I did feel a lift of joy and I couldn’t explain it. And then I was like, Well, maybe I’ve made this up. Maybe this isn’t real. Maybe this is just because I really want to feel that that I felt that. But also I prayed like this could be God. Like, maybe God is real.
Katherine Brown:
And later that day, I was in a hip hop class. After the class, a girl who was in my class came up to me and I’d never spoken to her before. And she’s also called Catherine. And in drama school it’s like pretty competitive. So I found her annoying just because she was called Catherine and I was like, No, there’s another Catherine in the class and she’s so smiley and friendly, terrible. And I obviously was in a pretty tough headspace. So yeah, I basically didn’t like her and she came up to me and she said, I’m really sorry. You’re going to think I’m so strange, but I’m a Christian and I feel like God told me to talk to you. I don’t know whether you’re a Christian or not, but do you want to come to church with me? And I just prayed like that morning, so it was wild. So I obviously was like, Whoa, yes, of course, yeah, yeah. I will come to church. She became one of my really good friends. And yeah, took me on a journey of just discovering who Jesus is. And I joined a tiny church plant out there. So it’s just ten of us in a living room, which was the perfect space for me to sort of grieve and learn about Jesus with a few other people.
Leah Sax:
Oh, that’s amazing to hear how through what is a very dark time, God revealed himself to you and you, Stefan and his family to say, this is who I am.
Katherine Brown:
Yeah, I know. Yeah. God, just a terrible situation to bring me to faith and some other people as well. There were other people who became Christians off the back of Stefan and dying, which is great.
Leah Sax:
God is so good. And that’s a quite a thing to say after such a transforming event. Jon, in those years since you became a believer, what has God taught you?
Jon Brown:
I think one of the things I’ve learnt most through being a Christian is the value of relationship and I know that might sound crazy in a culture that’s obsessed with relationships, but in our culture we obsess over romance. It’s kind of like this is the epitome, the sort of the climax of it were of of love in relationship. But I think one of the beauties of being part of the family of God is you experience a community and a depth of relationship, a friendship that is so powerful, so amazing. And for me, one of the biggest blessings that God has brought into my life has been friendship. And over the years, just having friends that are actually a lot more than friends, they’re brothers and sisters in Christ. And that’s kind of a phrase that’s become a bit cheesy, unfortunately. But we really are like family, like one of my mates, Joel, for example, or James, who I’ve known for for years and years. And I mean, I could list loads of other friends, male and female, who’ve been such a blessing in my life that God brought into my life. And I think we really undervalue friendship and and God created community and friendship for us to bless us. And if we think that the kind of full extent of intimacy is found in romance, then we we have such a shallow and like malnourished view of what relationship and community is. One of the beauties of being a Christian is being added to a family. So whether you’re from a great family like mine or from one that is more challenging, being part of the family of God means you get adopted into a family where there’s brothers and sisters and mums and dads, and I think that’s one of the biggest blessings God gives us.
Leah Sax:
Amen, brother. Amen, brother. Do you see what I mean?
Jon Brown:
There we go. Amen sister.
Leah Sax:
This is the thing. But I mean, I’m such a huge advocate of the language of brother and sister, despite its cheesiness, because we are family. And that is such a good gift and it reminds us how we stand with one another as believers. So I love that. Katherine, let’s turn back to you. So you’ve become a believer in the States through what could be perceived as tragedy of what God has brought goodness. What has your journey with God been like since then?
Katherine Brown:
So I got back to England and finished my degree at Rose Bruford College, and I just really enjoyed when I got back from the States, sharing my faith and telling my friends about Jesus. When I got back, we all had interviews with our tutors to welcome us back to the college, basically to reflect on our learning out in the States and how we were and all of that. So I sat down with this interview and they said to me, Okay, write Katherine interview out the way. Who is it? Who have you fallen in love with? Who’s the boy? And I was like, Oh, it’s Jesus. Like It’s Jesus. And he started laughing. He was like, Oh, stop it. You’re so silly. Da da da da da. No, really, who’s the boy? And I was like, No, really, I’ve become a Christian. And he said, Oh, no, not one of those evangelical ones. And I went, What does that mean? No idea.
Katherine Brown:
What does that mean? He’s like, Do you believe in, like sharing about God? And I was like, Well. Yeah, I guess so. Like, this is what’s happened to my life. And he’s like, the next year is going to be really hard for you. Which is an interesting reflection.
Leah Sax:
Really is, isn’t it
Katherine Brown:
from him? And also interesting that he could. Yes, see on me just in my demeanour that something had really shifted in my life, that I was a completely different person and that I looked like I was in love, which I was. I had really fallen in love with Jesus, which feels like a weird thing to say, but that is, yeah, I’m quite an emotional person. My emotions take a lead in my faith. So I was like, just head over heels for for all things Jesus.
Leah Sax:
Has that feeling of being head over heels in love for Jesus been like consistent in the years since you finished college?
Katherine Brown:
For me, when I think about God, I think about having a relationship with God and that being quite a real thing, that it is a relationship. And like with any relationship, you don’t feel head over heels all the time. So like me and Jon, we’re newlyweds, which is fun, but we don’t feel head over heels in love all the time. What?
Jon Brown:
You said I was happy. I’m always in love! How do you not see that?
Adam Curtis:
We can do some counselling later It’s okay.
Katherine Brown:
And Like with any relationship like our marriage, like my relationship with Jesus. I don’t feel head over heels in love with God all the time. At the beginning I felt that a lot because it was so new and God was changing so much about me. Now, quite a few years on, yeah, I have a very different relationship with God. I wouldn’t say I have the same extreme emotional head over heels feeling, but it has matured into something much deeper, much more consistent.
Leah Sax:
Jon, Katherine, thank you so much for sharing your stories.
Leah Sax:
Hi. Delight Podcast family. Did he know you can now rate us on Spotify? We’d love for you to do so. It takes just one click or tap or whatever you do. Liking, sharing and subscribing really does bring Delight Podcast to new ears. So thank you. You can check out our website at DelightPodcast.com. There you can find transcripts of each episode, detailed show notes, including links to John’s book More Real. And the latest blog by Adam on Hospitality. You can find us on socials. Just search @DelightPodcast.
Adam Curtis:
And we’re now turning to our topic of the day hospitality. Katherine, what is hospitality and is it any different from just having people around for dinner?
Katherine Brown:
I would say that there have been times that I’ve had a whole group of people round my house and I haven’t been hospitable where I haven’t shown hospitality to them because I’ve been so stressed and concerned about the food and making sure everything’s okay and like just doing practical things that I haven’t actually had time to really look at the people who are in my home and hear their stories and share my heart and listen to what they have to share. And that is true hospitality. It is a picture of the gospel. It is saying, I really value you. You’re part of my family. I want you in my home. I want you to share life with me. And when you come into my home, I want you to leave feeling more loved, maybe knowing something a little more about God’s heart for you and feeling really welcomed in to my life and to God’s kingdom as well. So I would say hospitality isn’t about having people over, although having people in your home is very important. It is more about listening to the person and welcoming them in to your life.
Adam Curtis:
That’s immediately helpful to start on that point that it’s about listening. Welcoming people into our lives. Because sometimes we can think about hospitality. Oh, well, I’ve got to have a big enough house. I’ve got to have a big enough table. I’ve got to have a large income so I can afford to have, to throw a dinner party. But actually, if we immediately simplify it to the heart of it, welcoming people into our homes, sharing life with them and loving them, that’s beautiful.
Jon Brown:
I think we can sometimes confuse hospitality with entertaining. And it’s this idea of, you know, I need to have people around to my house to have this swanky meal, three courses, everything’s got to be spotless. And we’re kind of more putting on a show than welcoming people into our home. And I think that’s one of the reasons people get so put off hospitality. I was chatting to someone and they were like, Oh, I just find it so stressful having people over. And then I went to their house for a meal and it was incredible. I mean, it’s three courses they spent hours cooking. The house was like a showroom, And I’m like.
Jon Brown:
I mean, this is nice. But at the same time, it’s like, no wonder you think hospitality is stressful because to you it’s this massive endeavour and it’s about putting forward your best house and your best meal. And as Katherine said, hospitality is a lot more about your heart than your home and about what you’re wanting to leave people with when they go, yes, nice food in their belly. But to be honest, you’re a lot more affected by the conversation and the welcome and the environment than it was. The meat cooked just right. It’s so much more about loving people than impressing them.
Adam Curtis:
This is interesting because I wonder if this then starts to knock on a door of maybe a myth of our day that our homes are our castles. Now, for those people who aren’t English, this is sort of a common phrase we’d have to throw around that our homes are our castles. It’s our safe space. This is a place where we feel like energised and thus we’re only going to let people in who are going to energise us and who we like. What would you guys have to say about that idea that our homes are our castle?
Jon Brown:
I quite like that we can talk about castles because it taps into the kingdom metaphor. And the truth is the whole message of Jesus is bringing in a new kingdom. And the reality is in the UK, the United Kingdom, we have our own view on what it means to live a good life. And that message in our culture and our context is You are the king of the castle. You’re the king of your life. You decide what’s true, build your own treasures, build your own kingdom, and your home is your castle. But when Jesus came, he came to bring an upside down message, an upside down gospel, an upside down kingdom which says Your life isn’t all about you. It’s not about you getting more stuff and you having all of the best things for you. Your life is about others. So we had a king who came not to be served but to serve. And Jesus didn’t say, All right, disciples, it’s time for the foot washing, so get on your knees and start washing my feet. He did the foot washing, which is mental, because his hands are the ones that threw stars into space. And he’s the King of kings and Lord of Lords. And yet he watched Dirty Feet and by the way, wash the dirty feet of Judas who is about to betray him.
Jon Brown:
And like that is the King we serve. And so the idea that our home is our castle is part of a bigger story, a bigger question of is my life all about me or is it all about others? Is my money all about me or is it about others? Is my diary all about me, my time, all about me or others? All of these things are linked in. So if your life is all about you, then only ever have people into your house when you feel like if you’re in the mood for. Only have people you get on with easily don’t have people who are hard work. Only have people that are natural and the conversation flows easily and just do it whenever you feel like it. But if life is about something else, if there is a kingdom of God that we can live in and live for, then our homes are no longer our castle. They’re kingdom outposts of the Kingdom of God and then transforms our home, our tables, into a place in which we’re trying to extend and advance his kingdom rather than just the place we’re trying to entertain as and when we feel like or in the mood.
Adam Curtis:
Oh, that’s so powerful. And as you were speaking like 1 Peter sort of came into my mind, 1 Peter 4:8-9 which speaks about hospitality above all, love each other deeply because love covers over a multitude of sins, offer hospitality to one another without grumbling into verse ten. Each of you should use whatever gifts you have received to serve others as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms, so that idea everything that we have is a gift. We don’t only have ownership over any of it. And I think sometimes as Christians, we can understand that when we’re talking about our salvation oh we’re like, I didn’t earn my salvation, but actually extends further than that. The very air we breathe, we didn’t earn that. The very fact that we have a life, the very fact we have homes and kitchen tables and food and time. And to all of these things, the gifts, all of these things are opportunities to to share and to to give that which has been given us.
Katherine Brown:
And that is a really challenging verse as well, Adam, because it talks about not grumbling in showing hospitality. And I totally agree with everything John said and that is what we want to live. But at the same time, for both of us, there are moments when you’re tired or you feel sad or you just can’t be bothered. And having people around who are challenging or not like you is the last thing you want to do. You don’t feel like it. And so we all live in the tension of this is what I believe and this is what I believe about Jesus and how I am supposed to live and how I want to live and how I pray that I would live. And this is who I am and all of my mess and emotion and how I feel. And I really want my house to be nice and all of that. And we live in that constant tension and we have to continually come back, Lord, help me be someone who doesn’t grumble. I want to have people in my home. So I think our capacity grows over the years, and hospitality isn’t something that you just sort of wake up one day and you’re like, I’m now very good at hospitality. I’m now Hospitality Queen and I love it all the time.
Leah Sax:
I have the hospitality badge.
Katherine Brown:
Yeah, I’ve won my hospitality badge. I think it’s something that you learn on your feet and it’s something that, you know, in different times of your life you’re better at or not good at or have more energy for or don’t. And I think it’s just making a decision in everything, like whether it’s hospitality or giving or whatever. I’m going to do this, whether I feel like it or not.
Adam Curtis:
That’s very helpful that that we hear God’s command. We don’t always immediately, like, know how to do it or feel like we want to do it. But the very act of trusting the Lord that what he says is good and that He is the Lord and that He He knows us better than we know ourselves. Yeah. Simply sometimes we trusting him, then we get to see why is hospitality such a joy and why is it actually incredibly sort of life giving? Why should I show hospitality to people who are different than me? Because I definitely get the idea that showing hospitality to people who are like me, I love inviting people who make me laugh into my home.
Katherine Brown:
Yeah.
Adam Curtis:
There is nothing better in my life than getting someone who makes me giggle into the house.
Katherine Brown:
I also enjoy having people who make me laugh in my home and that is definitely something I have had to notice in myself. I really like fun and actually that can become a bit of an idol as well because I really want to have a fun time all the time and have people who are lots of fun around me all the time, which isn’t always helpful. Why is it good for us to have different people in our homes? I just think it’s really helpful, like sharing life and eating with people who aren’t like you. You just get a much bigger perspective of what life is like, whether they’re Christians or not. Christians just hearing different people’s experiences like things that they’ve been through and how they’ve journeyed, that it helps you to become more compassionate and more empathetic and kinder. I think it’s very important to have people in our lives that are so different to us. Jesus models that doesn’t he he hangs out with so many different types of people. And when he gathered the disciples, he didn’t choose one type of person. He purposely chose people who wouldn’t have naturally liked each other and whacked them together. And that’s the way that God set up the disciples. So for us, He’s modelled that for us. So it’s clear that we’re meant to be in a community that’s full of different people, even if it’s hard at times. And we clash with people and it’s a bit annoying and we’re like, Oh, I don’t get why they do that or they’re not that fun or whatever it is for our good.
Leah Sax:
And indeed, when we have part of the church family in our homes, we do learn from them what God has taught them. How does it look different when we have non-believers in our home? Is that still an act of hospitality?
Jon Brown:
Yeah, 100%. I mean, I think one of the best ways to share the love of God with people is through inviting someone into your into your home and into your life. And again, we get to model something to unbelievers in a way in which we we do hospitality and we open up our homes and our lives. And for me the actually the biggest challenge is for a lot of non Christians, unbelievers, I don’t think actually going into someone’s home especially don’t know them that well is part of the culture is part of the norm. And so just one example, for example, our neighbours, we moved into this block of flats and, and we thought oh we really want to get to know our neighbours. And it started quite badly the very first day after our honeymoon. When we moved in we managed to flood the bathroom and dripped in into our 80 year old neighbour downstairs, cut off all his power and went through his light bulbs and he’s knocking on our door in his pants saying, What have you done? We’ve just this is the first time we’ve ever met him. And yeah, so that was a good introduction to the block of flats we live in. But then we thought, okay, well there’s some neighbours right opposite and in our flats there’s the opposite neighbours where your kitchens are, you’re a few metres apart and you see each other every day.
Jon Brown:
So you’re always waving at each other and you face each other. Well, let’s, let’s get to know them. So we asked if they wanted to come over for drinks one day and they were like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, we’ll let you know. We’re really busy at the moment. We’ll let you know. And then from then on they’ve just avoided us all the time. And so it’s, it’s not a story of like, oh yeah. And then they came round and then we prayed for them and there was tears and they became Christians like they literally avoid us now. So but I know that’s not everyone, but to be honest, my experience is it feels. For Christians We’re so used to being in each other’s homes, but for a lot of non Christians that isn’t so much the norm. But when, when you model something different and invite them in, I think it’s a great way to view the upside down kingdom like for a lot of non Christian. My mates for example, we meet up in bars and we meet up in a restaurant. I’ve known them for years, but the thought of being in homes, it’s like, well, that’s too intimate. And I think that’s the beauty of Christianity is you can see me and all of me and my home is part of me and and I want you in my life, every part of it.
Adam Curtis:
So let’s make it practical. How can I start sharing hospitality with others? Jon, what would you say to that?
Jon Brown:
Invite someone to come around to your home. It’s just very simply, I don’t think you need to wait until you have a certain type of home or you’re in a certain season. Maybe you think, well, if I didn’t live in this season or in this place, I could start having people over. I would say, Just start where you’re at. And obviously we all have different situations and circumstances that can limit the kind of things we can do. But I would say if you’re able to invite someone over, invite someone over, and if you hate cooking, that’s fine. You don’t have to cook for them. You don’t always have to have a meal. I think food is great. Jesus is always having meals with people. So if you can amazing. But don’t let that be the barrier to having people over. I personally don’t enjoy cooking, so I try and find creative ways. I mean, it’s helpful and I’m married to someone who’s a good cook.
Leah Sax:
Is that One of your creative ways?
Katherine Brown:
When we were just like in the same friendship group, Jon would organise events, buy the food, then bring the food to the person’s house, and they would cook the food or he’d host it at his house and would have all the food and then invite someone around to do the cooking. So, you know, if you don’t like cooking, you’ve just got to find creative ways.
Jon Brown:
It’s true. It’s it’s slightly embarrassing, but actually I’m not really embarrassed because the truth is, it’s like, fine, find your sweet spot. Like some. And you know, we’ve said it’s not all about the cooking. Look, if you love cooking, if you find life in spending hours poring over a cookbook and cooking it and chopping those vegetables and I don’t know why making the souffle or whatever it is.
Leah Sax:
Because all those vegetables in the souffle.
Katherine Brown:
Love it.
Adam Curtis:
You know.
Jon Brown:
I don’t go above people’s intellect because I’m kind of, you know, kind of just dumb it down for everyone. So what I use to do things that bring in shares, because that’s another barrier. People, I can’t afford this. And you’re like, you can ask people to bring things. So we do bring in shares and just find creative ways to have people in your home. Or if you don’t want to have a meal, just say, come round for a coffee or a drink. But I just say, start where you’re at, have people over. And more important than the cooking is the conversation is the question. Talk about, you know We mentioned inviting different people into your home or even unbelievers. As a society If we’re rubbish at hospitality, generally we are rubbish at conversation like we are terrible at asking questions. We are obsessed with ourselves and we don’t massively care about other people. The amount of times you chat to someone and they literally never ask you a question is depressing. Like that is the norm. So have people in your house and ask them about them. And you know, they may never ask you back. Like that happens all the time, but ask them about them and that’s how they’ll feel. Love. Yes, they may love your soufflé, but they’ll feel more loved if you’ve got to know them and their heart and their pain and their joys. If you’re going to spend ages preparing, prepare some questions. And if you’ve got time for the souffle, check that into.
Adam Curtis:
I’m not sure I want to have a souffle made by you.
Jon Brown:
I mean to be honest what is a souffle. I actually don’t know. I’m saying souffle because it sounds a bit pretentious in whatever I can tell it. Tell me what a souffle is.
Katherine Brown:
I don’t actually know if I would know. Is it like a cake?
Jon Brown:
Yeah Leah You look like a souffle person. What a souffle.
Leah Sax:
I say thank you very much. I don’t like I don’t know what that means. I must admit, I’m not the world’s biggest cook. Partly, I live my life basically on the road. It’s one of the cakes that like desserts that rises in the oven. And if you don’t put it in for the perfect time, it deflates. So the art of souffle is like like possibly one of the most complicated desserts you could possibly create. So I like that’s our pinnacle of hospitality.
Jon Brown:
It’s like a great British bake off, like, you’re going to do that. This will ruin people’s career’s kinda level.
Leah Sax:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So that’s as much as my soufflé suffle goes.
Adam Curtis:
I think it makes it even more complicated when you’re throwing in vegetables.
Leah Sax:
Jon and Katherine, I’m not going to lie. I’ve never met you before, and I’m highly entertained by you both. And the idea of going round to yours for dinner sounds, frankly, a joy. I’ve just invited myself round. What if you’re someone who genuinely goes well, if you’re someone who goes, I just don’t know anyone to invite. I’m really not great company like that. They sound like they can do it and they’re really good at it. But I’m like actually quite a boring person. Like, why would anyone want to come over to my house for dinner?
Katherine Brown:
I once read People will find you interesting if you’re interested in them. And I found that quite helpful to read because I think Jon mentioned it before about how our culture never asks questions and our culture is set up to entertain, be a really interesting person, have a lot going on in your life. Are you travelling, are you studying? Are you learning? Have you got the best job? Tell people about it. Yeah, do that. You know you’re wanting to share with people, look, I am this impressive person, but actually with hospitality, yeah, you might be a boring person. You might not have a lot going on in your life, and that’s okay. It’s about showing an interest in other people and saying, You’re coming into my home, I’m not going to entertain you. If you can do that and you like to do that, then yeah, maybe do do that. But I would say not to the detriment of showing an interest in the other person, because actually for people who are naturally more extroverted or loud or love to tell a long story or make people laugh, and this is something me and Jon would have to war against. It’s saying actually tonight the focus is not going to be on us and our funny anecdotes.
Katherine Brown:
It’s going to be on the other person and their life and who they are. My first week at New Community after I got back from the States, so I’d only been a Christian for a few months. I rocked up to our evening service and this mum walked across the room to me and said, Oh, I’ve never seen you before, what’s your name? So we had a little bit of chat and then she was like, Do you want to come round this Wednesday for dinner? And I was like, Yeah, I would love that because I don’t know any Christians here, and that would be amazing. And she lived at the top of my road. So for the next year she just took me under her wing and I was round her house all the time. But it was because she just walked across the room because she didn’t know me and invited me round. And it was that simple. And I think it can be that easy if you just yeah, it can be scary. But just taking a deep breath, walking across the room and saying, Hey. I don’t know you. Who are you want to come around?
Adam Curtis:
Actually, people are so honoured to be invited around someone’s house. Like, maybe. Maybe they can’t come around that exact Wednesday because they’re doing something else. But. But actually, I think every time someone’s invited me to their house, I don’t think, oh, no, I’m actually like, oh, I feel like, what a privilege.
Leah Sax:
That speaks an extrovert. Introverts among us sometimes do feel. Oh, no, I’m not gonna lie.
Jon Brown:
And also and it’s like you you’re saying, what if I’m boring or if I’m introvert, you don’t have to just be 1 to 1. In fact, I sometimes, even as a big extrovert, can find 1 to 1 hangouts a bit full on. So it’s like you can invite a few people and if you’re like, I need someone who’s more of a talker, then invite them and they can help you with that. Like for me, I hate cooking, so I regularly invite people literally, as Katherine said, who I would have bought the food and they would come into the kitchen and enjoy the cooking. And actually some people like being in the kitchen, especially to begin with, because it’s like I find the conversation hard. So if I’m in a kitchen and chopping vegetables, I find it more comfortable talking to people as I chop veg. So actually it’s not kind of disrespectful of lazy or ever to invite people into that process. So for example, when we have people over because you have people over all the time, we have them off to help us with the washing up afterwards. Now, not always. It depends who it is. But if they’re part of our family and we’ve got really close, again, this is our home, we’re family. And so we treat people like family. It’s like if family come over, you chip in, you do your bit. That’s how family works. And so I think that’s kind of like the next level of hospitality where people are so at ease and so relaxed in your home that it doesn’t feel like you’re having guests over, as it were. It’s just like my brother or sister are here. And that’s what for me to hospitality. That’s the goal I want to get to and it takes time. But that’s the dream when you get to that place.
Katherine Brown:
The other day we had a couple round for dinner and this was such a small moment, but it was just so encouraging to me. We were all eating and like chatting away and then Ellie got up and just walked into our kitchen, got a drink out the fridge, and came back to the table. She felt like got the water and then like filled up the water and came back and I was like, Yeah, she feels so comfortable in our home. She just got up mid-conversation. She didn’t say, Oh, do you mind if I just go like, Get this from the kitchen or fill up this from the kitchen? She just knew she could. And I was like, That is the goal people feeling at home, in our home.
Adam Curtis:
And that’s that’s the other side of this conversation is is actually there there are ways of being a good guest and maybe, maybe actually just not using that language. I’m a guest, but I’m a brother and a sister to this person because it is I’ve got to make that choice. I’ve got to get up and fill the water jug or I’ve just got to get up and start washing up.
Leah Sax:
I think it’s interesting. I don’t know what your experience of being in the States was, Katherine. Is that this open home or this this this kind of caution? It’s quite a British phenomenon. I’m being in this I was in the States for a year when I was 18, and that Open House is a much more cultural concept. So I know we have a fair number of international listeners, so I’m quite interested to see what they they hear on how we have like that open home. What if we don’t have our own space? What if we are renting a room and don’t feel comfortable, you know, with people who wouldn’t feel happy with having people around? What would you say to those people who just physically just can’t have people in their home.
Jon Brown:
When you open it up to beyond just having a three course meal, a dinner party, if hospitality is so much more than that, then it opens it up to so many different contexts and life stages and all of those kind of things. And I think to your question of what if you don’t have a lot of space or maybe you live in a context where you don’t even have a lounge in your house or you have housemates or parents who are very adamant that you don’t have people in. Well, there’s creative things you can do. Yes. You can meet up in bars. And again, it’s the hospitality principles of questions. So you can go to a coffee shop to Costa or whatever, or I’ve done this before where people are struggled to get out of their house. I’ve gone to their home and cooked for them. So families who are like our house is mental. You can’t bring our kids out. We’ve got a two year old and brother like you live in a little flat, John, like it’s not going to work. I’m like, That’s fine, let me come to your house and cook for you. So I’ve done that before. So I’m still modelling like the care and serving by cooking, but doing it in a creative way which enables that relationship to take place.
Leah Sax:
I love that. I also like that you refuse to cook in your own home, but you’re very willing to serve someone else.
Katherine Brown:
I was going to say, what did you cook, John? Souffle.
Jon Brown:
So veggie souffle is my speciality.
Katherine Brown:
John took around a frozen pizza.
Jon Brown:
It probably was pizza. And again, it’s that thing of like, we feel we have to impress people. But yeah, what if it is a frozen pizza? Like, the stupid thing is when people don’t host because they don’t like cooking, it’s like it’s better to have a frozen pizza and so on in your house then no one in your house. I’m never going to be the veggie soufflé guy and I’m Okay with that.
Adam Curtis:
I’m okay with that, too.
Adam Curtis:
That was such a joy to have Jon and Caroline. They’re just so much fun and there’s so much wisdom and there’s so much life that they’ve lived.
Leah Sax:
So true.
Adam Curtis:
I remember being particularly struck when they spoke about how hospitality is like a picture of the gospel. Yet we have been given so much by the Lord. The God on high has come down and He has sent His one and only son to like to serve us and to give his life to save us. And actually, as we’re using the very things that Lord has given us, our homes, our tables, our cooking skills, we have the ability to serve those around us. That includes food and homes, but it’s actually simpler than that as well. Includes a listening ear, a deepening friendship. I remember once this going round Christian couple who are older than me, their house, and just talking about life. And at the end of our conversation, they just sat there and they prayed for me. Yeah, that was just so simple and so powerful.
Leah Sax:
And I love the way John played on words when you were talking about your home as our castle, I mean, like actually that castle, that kingdom, that kingdom outposts like out hospitality is a kingdom outpost. I was like, Yeah, this is part of the world God has given us to serve and to love other people. And we are in turn are being built up through that.
Adam Curtis:
And that actually makes the whole act of hospitality just so much bigger.
Leah Sax:
Yeah.
Adam Curtis:
It’s not this simple thing of what am I going to cook? Who am I going to invite around? It’s this big thing of like, Oh, how can I worship the Lord? And it’s this huge thing about how can I be that that upside down kingdom spiritual outpost and actually show God’s grace and love and favour here so that other people might worship him, too.
Leah Sax:
Jon and Katherine, we always like to ask our guests a bonus question and our season three bonus question is what are you most enjoying about God’s character at the moment? And I’m going to shoot that question to Katherine.
Katherine Brown:
I’m enjoying God’s consistency and understanding that more coming out of the pandemic now into a bit more normal life. I’ve changed so much. I’ve been so up and down, but God has always been constant.
Jon Brown:
I would be similar to Katherine’s, I think. I’ve just been excited by the consistency. Yes, but the eternal nature of God like it feels like so many things are coming and going and chopping and changing. There’s so much uncertainty, so much confusion. And I love that we know an eternal God who is the same yesterday, today and forever. And we have this promise that we will be with him forever, that this life isn’t all that there is. And so however bad it gets, confusing it gets. We will be with him forever. Perfect joy, perfect peace. What a promise.
Leah Sax:
We can’t wait to be with you again next week for episode 11, when we’ll be being really honest and open about the topic of doubt with Kristi Mair. Do you join us? This is Adam and Leah delightfully signing off by bye.
Adam Curtis:
Bye bye.
Delight Podcast 